ti-legacy.com

Applesauce wrote:

Geras wrote:And still boring as all hell. You're expecting 100% of chars to be complete morons, even the ones who are familiar with magic. If you honestly think the game would be better without useful magic, with due respect, you're just wrong.

No one's voting against "useful" magic, but you've explicitly stated that the only things that fall into that category are deadly spells, and anything short of that is boring.

Mages have been deadly before, and maybe new deadly spells WOULD be awesome, I'm not even saying they wouldn't. But you keep backing into broader phrasing which implies that the only way anyone can ever have fun as a mage is if they murder people.

You say the question you're answering is "Why use magic?" But the only answer you've given is "to kill people." If you honestly think the game is only fun when characters murder other characters, then TI is always going to be a bad time, even though obviously murder occurs from time to time. There are plenty of PVP games out there, even RP-PVP so I'm not saying stick to hack-and-slash. But if you're not playing a PVP game, consider that everyone who is intentionally not playing PVP believes there might be other ways to have fun, mages included.

I didn't say the only useful spells are deadly spells. I'm saying that mages that aren't deadly aren't scary. That doesn't mean that should be the primary tool in their toolbox.

Applesauce wrote:

Geras wrote:And still boring as all hell. You're expecting 100% of chars to be complete morons, even the ones who are familiar with magic. If you honestly think the game would be better without useful magic, with due respect, you're just wrong.

No one's voting against "useful" magic, but you've explicitly stated that the only things that fall into that category are deadly spells, and anything short of that is boring.

Mages have been deadly before, and maybe new deadly spells WOULD be awesome, I'm not even saying they wouldn't. But you keep backing into broader phrasing which implies that the only way anyone can ever have fun as a mage is if they murder people.

You say the question you're answering is "Why use magic?" But the only answer you've given is "to kill people." If you honestly think the game is only fun when characters murder other characters, then TI is always going to be a bad time, even though obviously murder occurs from time to time. There are plenty of PVP games out there, even RP-PVP so I'm not saying stick to hack-and-slash. But if you're not playing a PVP game, consider that everyone who is intentionally not playing PVP believes there might be other ways to have fun, mages included.

Let's be clear here too. I'm not talking about killing sprees as the pinnacle of RP or anything. None of my chars on the current TI have a body count at all, and that includes a great deal of time as an active mage. I'm talking about the capacity to be deadly. The possibility. The potential. The anticipation. People should be scared of mages because mages can f### them up - socially, financially, mentally, and yes physically.

Alas, I just don't agree with the opinion expressed about mages needing to be physically scary to be worthwhile.

Most of the issues with combat spells that I raised were not even addressed. In my view, mages amok all the time is not beneficial for TI, which is the natural result of giving mages the advantage on all fronts. It's not a game if someone's a winner before people even start to play. Frankly, until I am convinced that this wouldn't be the result of the suggested changes, combat spells will not be added to the game.

Philosophically, I can get why someone would want mages to be physically dangerous, but as a game mechanic, it just isn't right.

Kinaed wrote:- There are no downsides to playing a mage except risk of dying, which really, everyone else has too. It's also more highly mitigated with mages starting at 50% rec_level at the outset.

This, so much this. A 15% recommend bonus is huge, plus from what I hear, mages can increase it more easily than others. There's already 30-40% active mage/latent characters, and likely most people play or have played a mage. Making mages have so many benefits that it'd raise to 60-70% would make me personally, and maybe others who don't want to play a mage for roleplay reasons, feel left out.

I'd love for mages to get more non-combat/neutral spells. By that I mean not curses and such. Curses, demon stuff, etc., is all indirect combat. From what I hear, you can make someone's life a living hell as a mage. I've heard one thing that you can do, and it's both murder and worse than murder emotionally for a character. It creeps me out. No, you can't kill characters directly with magic, but you can sure kill everything that they hold dear.

Also, this is how I'd see magic working somewhat realistically anyways. If you ever read actual occult texts, it's not about shooting fireballs, it's all about insideous indirect stuff, both good and bad. Enchantments, curses, causing stuff indirectly--etc. So it fits.

Everything should have ups and downs. Freemen get 25 silver/week while gentry get 250, but freeman can go a lot more places (and can pay to get into the gentry places). Mages have a big advantage rec-wise, tons of cool spells, utility spells, and indirect-combat spells, but they have to practice in secret or risk dying. If they want direct combat, then they have to take up slots and have less room for indirect magic.

If people are roleplaying characters that are too used to magic, then I'd say we shouldn't give mages more scary spells--that's not a solution, but we should work to recommend those characters who go scared stiff when encountering magic.

Kinaed wrote:Alas, I just don't agree with the opinion expressed about mages needing to be physically scary to be worthwhile.

Most of the issues with combat spells that I raised were not even addressed. In my view, mages amok all the time is not beneficial for TI, which is the natural result of giving mages the advantage on all fronts. It's not a game if someone's a winner before people even start to play. Frankly, until I am convinced that this wouldn't be the result of the suggested changes, combat spells will not be added to the game.

Philosophically, I can get why someone would want mages to be physically dangerous, but as a game mechanic, it just isn't right.

They were addressed Kinky. I'm not suggesting mages should be able to go in guns blazing and take down a knight in a heads up fight. I'm talking about spells like Wyrds and the like - spells that are combat relevant, but not particularly relevant for going on a rampage.

And this isn't entirely a critique of the status quo. The addition of mattack was (and as far as I know still is) a huge boon to mage's being able to protect themselves without resorting to beating someone with a stick. I haven't actively played a mage (or frankly any toon) in a while, so I can't comment on whether or not mages are too weak or too strong right now.

I'm just arguing against those who are suggesting a magic that is limited to only making pretty flowers appear would be fine for the game. I think we can all agree that boring useless mages would not be beneficial to anyone.