ti-legacy.com

I keep OOC off at all times.

I find tells and osay to be indispensable, and even RP games I've played that don't have an OOC channel do have an osay channel for emergencies.

For TI to go OOC free, I feel as though they would need to have a 100% transparency policy for help files. That is, no game mechanics are disguised or hidden so you can "find out IC." Of course, I feel this should be the case regardless, but I digress. Right now, some aspects of TI are meant to be learned ICly or from other players and that simply doesn't work when people might need to clarify syntax or explain things in plain text or whatever but can't.

I'm surprised at how many people said they'd be willing to trial TI without OOC Channels. Thank you for having an open mind! I'm probably still not quite ready to take that plunge, but my curiosity remains regarding how TI would be without them. Maybe one day we will trial it for a month and see what happens. Not just yet though.

Anyway, I do like some things that have been raised in this thread, and primarily the one that interests me is how people are talking about the abuses they've experienced from other people's OOC behaviors - and raising that the community should be self policing for it. The thing is, self policing clearly isn't working because people are still complaining about the same behaviors today as they were when I took over this MUD 10+ years ago.

I also hate this kind of thing:

PlayerA:

Did you hear that PlayerB is going to quit because PlayerC is acting like an asshole? <insert description of asshole behavior>.

Me:

Uh... no, that's appalling - and the first I've heard of it. Do you mind if I talk to them about it? ... Oh, I see - of course it was a private conversation and they'll probably be upset that you're telling me this - please tell them to come talk to me.

... ... ... <birds chirp> ... ... ...

Why don't people report it when people are cheating, but seem happy to complain to one another? Also, why do people insist on cheating? What can staff do about any of it? Are we handling this well or poorly at the moment?

By gut feel, I'm convinced that around 30% of the tells that go through the system probably contain inappropriate IC info, and probably 1 in ten tells/tell conversations is an outright policy violation. Most people do it without intent to harm - just shooting the breeze with their friends and talking about their day... but they're still exchanging info that the other party didn't previously have, which becomes an IC/OOC Crossover risk.

That said, I think the player who said that tells aren't the issue is correct. It's the cheating that is. Still, not having tells may beneficially modify the amount and types of cheating we see. At the very least, it should cut down on things like PlayerB harassing PlayerA, pressuring PlayerA, etc. People seem to be far better at and willing to use their privacy settings on their IM account than they are at blocking people on TI who have stepped over the line.

Sadly, some people are enthusiastic participants in the cheating side of things. Those people suck.

Also, panda snot.

It may be a bit of an undertaking, but I've played on text-based RP games wherein the staff actively monitor and police all OOC channels, including tells and osays. Policy violations are quickly recognized and addressed. It is not necessary to punish most incidents, but a quick interjection from staff simply making people aware that policies are being violated (and which ones) was often enough to curb most negative behaviors. I know it personally helped me a lot (and once in a while still does!) to be called out when I put my foot out of line; in my early days I often didn't even know I was doing it!

I do not know if this would be right or wrong for TI:L specifically, and it may not necessarily solve every related problem, but in my experience it definitely helps.

I am just going to add one thing here, and maybe I'll get pistol whipped for saying it but I think Kinaed and others are right. Based on how vocal people are being about this, I don't think Tells, in and of themselves, are the problem. There is a deeper issue that has everyone on edge and ready to lash out against each other.

I think if we remove all but Tells, Osay, vis, jail, and mage that would be an interesting experiment, but I get the feeling that it is treating a symptom not the problem.

Oooh, a ghost from beyond the grave. I should have picked a more general username here, but there you go!

I really enjoy OOC channels and their allowances to be goofy or, in a more useful sense, to clarify what gets lost in translation between my mind and the text I generate. Additionally, an OOC-repertoire helps keep communications flowing which facilitates RP, good feelings, and plots and plans. I know I've missed a -lot- of conversation while I was out of town the past couple of days, so I'm not sure what the best medicine for people being "on edge and ready to lash out", but I hope it's something we can all talk through openly and honestly.

Another wrote:It may be a bit of an undertaking, but I've played on text-based RP games wherein the staff actively monitor and police all OOC channels, including tells and osays. Policy violations are quickly recognized and addressed.

Disclaimer: I definitely do NOT speak for any TI staff or other players or anyone who is not myself. I have no idea what their thoughts are on this, or whether they would want it or not, or whether they feel it would work or not.

What I do know is, having previously staffed a game where imms could see tells/osays, it does not always work the way you said. Or rather, the actual violators just moved to IMs or some other off-game communication, and what was left in-game was a lot of negativity and complaining. You see the fallout after someone colludes or cheats, but not the actual spreading of information.

This had a secondary effect of reducing staff morale. Because we felt sad seeing so many frustrated players, and then often felt frustrated ourselves for not being able to do anything about it. If PlayerA is complaining to PlayerB, it felt wrong to jump in like "HAY GUYS I HEARD YOU'RE CRYING, DO YOU HAVE SOME CHATLOGS?" even though the intent is to assist. If they already didn't feel comfortable coming to the imms, the imms didn't feel comfortable butting in. Of course, if we caught a tell where someone was actually cheating, spreading IC info or what have you, we could definitely step in. But again, that just encouraged the repeat cheaters to pboard each other some chat room or IM name or whatever.

Not saying it won't ever work, of course, since it seemed to be OK for the game you're describing. But it would probably have to be really seriously planned out and not just "spy on all channels now". Again, just my singular opinion.

Like I said, if you take OOC communication options out of the game, cheating players will find ways to cheat using external means -- AIM, Skype, etc. where you lose the ability to log and to fact-check during disputes, thereby turning policy issues into he-said, she-said debates. I have seen this happen while staffing for MUDs without in-game OOC. It's not worth it, IMO.

When I run into players like those described by Pixie, if it's clear they're not simply having a newbie technical issue, I usually say, "Let's keep it IC, please." and then I stay IC and try to teach by example. That tends to nip things in the bud and signals that players can and should pursue IC information and answers ICly. I've never actually had to block anyone from tells, but I'd definitely do so if I felt I was being harassed or pressured, especially after a warning -- and I'd report the player, too.


Some suggestions for staff:

-- Update 'help tells' to mention the block and ignore commands and their helpfiles (I forgot these even existed!). DONE
-- Create a helpfile like 'help twink' that gives good, concise examples of what players shouldn't use OOC communication for (help twink is a GREAT helpfile, even for experienced players -- I consider it required reading and I review it regularly). Also, I really like the 3rd and 4th examples in 'help crossover,' and the 4th example is especially easy to do without even realizing you're doing it. IN PROGRESS
-- Clarify the differences between quiet/deaf and block/ignore. Help block says that 'quiet' will block players from sending you tells. Help quiet says that 'quiet' will allow tells through. They can't both be right. DONE
-- Since osays should be used sparingly anyway, consider adding an output (deterrent) that displays to a person when they osay, such as: "Remember: osays are for helping new players with technical issues and advice only." Perhaps make this fire only in public-flagged rooms or when 3+ people are present, to allow for coaching without the spam. DONE

Some suggestions for players:

-- Encourage your fellow players to report abuse and problem behavior to staff. Copy and paste logs to Kinaed.
-- Discourage your fellow players (and new players especially) from using osay to banter or argue in public places. When I see frequent use of osays for non-helpful chatter, it's almost always among groups of cyan players creating a positive feedback loop among each other.
-- Use the 'assist' command to send relevant helpfiles to folks who need guidance.
-- Teach by example, and use emotes to cue appropriate behavior.
-- Don't let things fester. Complaining privately may be therapeutic at first, but if pervasive issues aren't addressed, the community as a whole can end up suffering from bad juju that eventually explodes in drama.


I'm a big proponent of self-policing, but it can be difficult even for experienced players to recognize and respond to problem behavior, and even experienced players are susceptible to twinkery and crossover. My advice is not to let yourself get flustered in the heat of the moment: think ahead about what you could say or do when you're confronted by a player who has difficulty staying IC and be prepared to respond in the way you're most comfortable with, even if that means using ignore.

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EDITS BY KINAED - Thank you, Player of Jules!

My post was a monstrous essay. Clarifying just one point that I buried between text-walls:

Asking for osay to be cut back isn't being well-received, right now. It isn't a request that's respected, and the lean of the osay chatter tends to become hostile and/or mocking toward the person that asked for it to peter off. I'll concede it should be reported to Staff in these situations. I suppose it just feels odd when you're the one person in a room of multiples that has an issue.

It's prevalent enough that it truly does feel like a game culture shift. Can we really control an OOC culture shift brought on by players? I'm not sure. But I think Jules has hit the nail on the head in just about every way.

For the record, I had no idea we could block or ignore tells from specific people until the OOC meeting. This changes a lot for me, personally.

The reminder when using osay in specific circumstances (like the ones Jules laid out) would be really great.