Log of OOC Meeting: 11/11/2023

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Sat Nov 11, 2023 7:16 pm

Ghed muses, "Before we begin, folks, here's a reminder of the OOC Chat Pact: Everyone on TI does the best they can, given what they know at the time, their skills and abilities, the resources available, and the situation at hand. We will be respectful of this and each other at all times."

Today's Agenda is:
- Staff Updates
- Player Heartbeat
- Player Topics

Is there anything anyone would like to add to the agenda to make certain we discuss it today? If you register a topic, please pre-write it so you're ready to present it when called upon.

Finally, who wants to scribe for today?"

Ghed muses, "No scribe?"

Dalton states, "I can do it, let met get a text doc up."

Ghed declares to Dalton, "Thanks! Please post it in the forums afterwards"

Temi pontificates, "Thanks!"

Ghed says, "Okay, time to start this week's Staff Update."

Ghed claims, "This weeeeek... hmm, what did I do? I usually pre-write this but I was washing the dishes."

Ghed has transferred Sue. [OOC]

Ghed pontificates, "I did some RPA, requests, recommends, a dip of policy, but nothing focused? I've been very, very, very busy IRL frankly. One or two days I didn't log in at all!"

Temi gives a slim prayer candle with chalices dyed into paler wax to Sue.

Ghed queries to Temi, "What about you?"

Temi says, "I hope everyone noticed that I launched the crusade event last Saturday, and I've been busily working on helping people sort through that this week."

Temi says, "We're currently in a collecting and planning stage, with leadership to have some say on when we transition to actual invasion, so please feel free to reach out to folks to get involved if you're interested. I know Raylene has been a bit swamped and Giselle is doing a lot for the organization"

Temi says, "But the plot header is open to start getting involved, and I have a couple plots I owe responses on, aiming for today"

Ghed says, "Really all the guilds are doing fantastic work"

Temi nods in agreement with Ghed.

Temi says, "Hopefully should be ways for most types of characters to be involved in some ways"

Ghed nods.

Ghed queries to Leta, "And what about you?"

Leta exclaims, "I did the usual questions/requests/RPA, updated a couple helpfiles. The most interesting thing I did was probably sorting out Prince Cristobal's arrival!"

Ghed declaims, "Oh yeah the baby prince!"

Temi nods in agreement.

Leta pontificates, "Sorry to those of you hoping for a princess, the pregnancy dice roll how they roll!"

Temi says, "We expect more excitement with him as he gets older."

Leta nods at Temi.

Temi grins at Leta.

Leta grins.

Temi states, "Leta was among those hoping for a princess too, I think."

Leta shuffles her feet. "Maybbee..."

Leta declares, "But that's it on my end!"

Ghed grins.

Alkide says in his best Godfather voice, "May their thirdborn son be a masculine son."

Ghed claims, "Eurus made a lot of little bug fixes, expect a rollover soon"

Ghed says, "And some stuff pertaining to nobles, yep"

Ghed asks, "Alright people, let's move on to Player Heartbeat: how has the week been for y'all?"

Leta says, "He's also been working on domain stuff, yeah"

Kalana claims, "Good, good! Though I missed the prayer vigil today due to a confusion on time zones. Alas."

Audrey states, "Pretty quiet, I've been mostly busy with studies, plus a little bit sick."

Dalton declaims, "RP has been good for me. Got some stuff done, got a lot of mail sent around and got even more stuff done and working on even more stuff!"

Leta exclaims to Audrey, "Feel better soon!"

Ghed claims to Dalton, "Fancy fancy"

Vayl claims, "Been a pleasant week, slowly figuring out my character, definitely a very difficult one for me lol, very off piste for what I normally play."

Temi states to Vayl, "Picking up new things can always be challenging, but often rewarding too"

Alkide declares, "Having a great time, generally speaking!"

Vayl states, "Yep! Lot of learning as we go here, hopefully things will become fulfilling and not just nerve wracking soon enough lol."

Ghed has transferred Taxius. [OOC]

Temi gives a slim prayer candle with chalices dyed into paler wax to Taxius.

Temi grins at Vayl.

Ghed says, "I'm liking this mood. Welcome all."

Ghed asks, "Alright, is there anything bothering anyone about TI that can be shared here and now?"

Ghed declares, "Sounds like we're all good!"

Ghed states, "Alright, time to move on to Player Topics."

Ghed says to Audrey, "You are first"

Audrey claims, "I haven't even started and I'm already nervous."

Audrey states, "Lord."

Ghed asks, "Okay, are you ready?"

Temi states, "Nothing too worry about, we're all friends here."

Leta claims to Audrey, "This is low stakes"

Audrey declares, "Yes I am!"

Audrey says, "It's a little bit of a long post, so make sure to get your drinks and popcorn out."

Ghed claims, "Alright, if you feel it will be too long, consider the forums too! It's okay."

Audrey pontificates, "The topic I will be talking about today is the 'Current State of Antagonism'!"

Temi claims, "But this is fine too"

Temi nods.

Audrey claims, "I want to begin my topic by first saying what Ghed says in all of our meetings. On TI, we are all trying our best, both staff and players alike try their best to deliver best experience for everyone."

Ghed nods.

Audrey claims, "That being said, although we all try our best, theres still shortcomings that we have from time to time, and its okay! The topic which I want to discuss and have it be discussed, is Antagonism in TI! Ive been working on it for about a week, compiling statements from both Staff members and venerated players alike."

Ghed claims, "Okay"

Audrey says, "The aim of my speech about the topic, as well as the reason why Im bringing this up, is to improve quality of the game, and make it enjoyable for both newcomers, and veteran players. Although while writing this, I recognized that some of the statements or messages might be taken the wrong way, or as bashing. Which is the whole reason Im doing this bit, that is to avoid sparking OOC conflict or hate."

Audrey claims, "To start, I want to say that Im a new player. I have just hit 75 hours of roleplay on this character when I started writing my personal review, which, up until that point. Was just a collection of observations and maybe comments along the journey. I shared it with the staff, and received positive feedback. Although what I found perplexing was that the issues which I brought up werent all too different from what they heard of other players, and theyd like to hear if I had any solution myself."

Audrey states, "At that point in time, I did not have any, and I had only my own perspective, which didnt help either. So this led me to various players, whom I inquired to their outlooks on antagonism and antagonists as a whole. Which, now leads to the main body of the topic at hand."

Audrey says, "My biggest criticism of TI were and still remains, antagonists, and how they are handled. During my playtime, I felt like antagonists, mages especially. Lack the confidence needed to engage with other players. As Ive only seen very little of them, well. On mage side that is. I found Thieves to be active but partly thats because Im a Reeve, only natural wed rub off one another."

Audrey states, "Its probably the happiest Ive ever been to get death threats from someone."

Audrey breaks into a laugh.

Temi grins.

Temi states, "Death threats are always exciting."

Temi claims, "Sometimes even in a good way."

Audrey says, "At first, I was thinking that maybe, antagonists are reluctant to hurt other players on IC level, as to avoid hurting them on OOC level. Which turns out to be true, however the reason for it was trickier to understand. Naturally, we all know that one of the themes of the RP is Non-Consensual roleplay."

Audrey declaims, "It means that your character can be forced out of their comfort zone, either by being hunted down, blackmailed, mugged, you name it!"

Leta has gone AFK.

Audrey says, "But over the week worth of discussion with other players, I have found the main outliner: There is a large disconnect between that specific part of the theme and playerbase."

Audrey says, "Although non-consensual RP exists on paper, or well, helpfile I guess. Not all people are comfortable with the notion of antagonism. In a sense that they might feel burned out afterwards."


Audrey states, "What happens, at least from what Ive gathered, is that an antagonist, or potential antagonist Goes through the cycle of Finding their target, now, having access to their target, then. Having tools to execute their plan, as well as escape plan, backup plan, and what not. Next, the policies they have to follow, bureacracy and what not. And finally, the execution itself, during or after which, they might feel emotionally exhausted as not all might enjoy their character getting into these situations."

Audrey states, "So, to my understanding, antags do all these mental and physical gymnastics in order to create engaging RP, to which they might not receive the emotional payoff to, or not see the continuation of, and might just fall before they can actually make any lasting change. This naturally incentivizes them to be EXTREMELY careful with their plans, and actions, sometimes to a degree where you can't catch the wind of what's happening."

Temi nods.

Audrey Now, as a new player. Ive ended up nearly quitting due to having very little things to do, and if it wasnt for my amazing GL that got me involved into the plots proper, then I likely wouldnt be here, and wouldnt have met all the wonderful characters and people!

Audrey states, "Surely, you can say that there ARE plots going on, and that THERE are schemes being schemed, murders being planned, big things going on about behind the curtain, and that I might just be a lil bit impatient! Sure, thats true. But sitting around and waiting until the plot explodes so that I might just be able to get involved in it, is a little discouraging."

Audrey huffs.

Audrey says, "Keep in mind that most of it is just my thoughts unrefined, compiled with the statements from some people and staff members I have asked around, and as always, there is no offense meant in these statement, my aim is to invite everyone to a discussion about this. And get multiple perspectives, as well as ways we can work towards making the game better for everyone, together, as a community."

Audrey says, "That'd be all from me."

Audrey exclaims, "Naturally I'd like to hear your own thoughts and opinions about this!"

Vayl asks, "To make sure I'm understanding, you're wanting more people to try and rope you in to antag plots?"

Temi muses, "Or people in general?"

Audrey declares, "Not me specifically, people in general!"

Kalana states, "It is a hard balance, and some people you don't know how much they will enjoy something, and sometimes they say they will enjoy it and then... may not find it as fun as they expected to and not react great."

Dalton asks, "So... the plan to detonate the mage bomb under the capital while everyone is off on the crusade is still a go?"

Audrey says, "Burn down the orphanage."

Dalton states, "Again."

Ghed has transferred Edison. [OOC]

Dalton states, "Don't forget the hospital for the fifth time."

Temi gives a slim prayer candle with chalices dyed into paler wax to Edison.

Edison claims, "Okay the meeting can begin"

Edison lifts a slim prayer candle with chalices dyed into paler wax to his nose and sniffs at it.

Dalton states, "Or is it sixth now... I've been gone a few years so I'm not sure."

Vayl says, "At least related to mages, and having played one myself back when I played years ago, many mages quite rightly have to be omega cautious since being caught means a character months/years old dies within a matter of weeks because they oust themself. It's why you've likely seen the thieves much more, because they can get caught, get 'told off', and go back to roleplay."

Temi states to Edison, "We're just talking about encouraging antagonism and how to get people more involved in that"

Vayl says, "Mages get caught you're basically nearly always losing that character, most of the time."

Edison finishes abruptly, "Oh - I had an idea"

Dalton exclaims, "The worst that happens to a thief typically is "off with your hand you dirty thief!""

Ghed states, "The mages have done a lot of stuff of late, but you may not hear all about it. A lot does not happen on the street level."

Dalton states, "Vs a mage which is, "ok so that's one pyring for you""

Vayl states, "Yep."

Vayl trails off, "As for GENERAL antagonism, my personal opinion is being self conscious about it in emotes can really help. 'Vayl laughs cruelly, his sadism obvious as he ...' makes it clear the author is aware they're being evil, and there's FAR less OOC bleed or the feeling you're being oocly targetted, and then everyone's happier to be part of the scene, generally speaking :)"

Audrey says, "I'll admit, I have zero idea how mages work, but from helpfiles I figured they have anonymous ways to contact people and troll them from afar-... And even if we take mundane people, notify/invite exists! Although the main problem is that it relies on having the name or alias of the person. >:D"

Temi says to Vayl, "Definitely a good thought. Makes it clear you're confident being viewed as the bad guy in something."

Dalton says, "As someone who has been a mage before... unless magic has changed a whole lot in the last few years, there are many ways for mages to contact and troll people anonymously from afar. However there are also policies in place with a lot of those spells to make sure people don't feel harassed as a player instead of as a character."

Alkide says, "I think a big issue here that Kalana and Vayl both mentioned is the IC/OOC bleed when you're the antagonist in a given scene. I've read a lot about how hard it is to play Inquisitors, for that reason."

Audrey pontificates, "So my own suggestion would be to make more use of the notify/invite features, allows to antagonize people without capture/arrest/fights!"

Dalton says, "The PK Policies are very strict for a reason... When I played previously it too RPing with someone only a few hours to be familiar enough with them for a PK and we had PC Mages who would do that, kidnap and sacrifice people almost on the regular."

Vayl says, "Potentially Audrey. I could see some worry that you plan out a fun antag scene, and then they just say 'nope' to the notify."

Vayl says, "But there's no harm in using it eihter"

Temi states, "Could help to have a few potential targets if you're planning an invite for an antagonistic scene"

Ghed says, "There's also antagonism targetting other folks, like knights"

Ikeala claims, "So ... I might offer my thought here as arguably a big antagnoist. At least by theme standards."

Dalton claims, "Would mages be able to use Notify to let someone know, "Hey I'm planing to spook you.""

Temi states, "Notify is definitely available to them"

Temi nods at Dalton.

Audrey claims, "Well Vayl, It's still better than getting caught and pyred, or having to worry about all the mental gymnastics surrounding escape plan."

Audrey declaims, "Oh, and don't forget social antagonism too!"

Audrey says, "Nobles being jerks, GL's being corrupt, you name it."

HIEROPHANT states, "I can comment on it also, as I have some Thoughts on the topic, but I'll let Ikeala share theirs first."

HIEROPHANT claims, "We'll probably overlap a fair bit."

Dalton claims, "I like my nobles as not jerks thank you... At least some of them anyway."

Alkide muses, "One thing I'm curious about is how this would reduce the risk to characters. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but these sorts of meetings would still have the same consequences, right?"

Leta has returned from AFK.

Ikeala says, "I would say one thing off the bat is this idea that characters are antagonists or they are not. But a lot of the time, various characters are antagonists to their enemies/rivals. Even if the antagonism is mostly social. However we tend to view ourselves as the protags to our own stories."

Leta nods at Ikeala.

Vayl says, "Couldn't agree more."

Vayl claims, "I'm playing a very, very nice chap who's very likely going to be a large antagonist to many people, but he's still a kind chap with genuinely good intentions."

Leta claims, "A lot of the antagonism on TI is not black and white. Expecting people to play the role of 'the baddie' is not always fair"

Temi claims, "Though there are definitely characters that are designed specifically to add antagonism of some sort or another, and those are valuable additions to the game that we should make sure to let people know that know when we are appreciating them. It often feels pretty thankless"

Audrey says to Alkide, "Well, characters that you invite can't codedly attack/harm you, so you can play out a fun scene you've been planning out for a long while. The consequences are still there for whatever might happen after the fact."

Leta states to Audrey, "Yes. This is why we created invite"

Audrey says, "Oh and surely, it's rude to expect people to take upon role of the baddie all the time."

Alkide states, "Oh! Yeah, that makes sense. I definitely WAS missing that piece of it. Thanks, Audrey."

Audrey declares, "No problem! <3"

Leta says, "That said, it's hard to force people to use it, persay. The amount it's used has waxed and waned over time"

Audrey says, "There's no talking about forcing, per say, more like encouraging it to be used, or at least try to find out why it's not used as often."

Temi nods.

HIEROPHANT states, "So, a few notions on this, without going into too much detail about the secrets of magery itself:

1. A lot of the tools available to mages, thieves, etc. are things that are codedly very potent, but that staff reasonably expect us to use somewhat sparingly, because they can become obnoxious, abusive, or unnecessarily disruptive. That's part of why you don't see it constantly.

2. Few antagonists are exclusively so. Those that are, are often short-lived, or are staff/plot NPCs; this is a highly social game, and a character that makes no friends at all tends to burn bright, hot, and quickly.

3. Invite policy was only relatively recently adjusted to accommodate some degree of safety; previously, you had to have - and keep! - whereRP on, the entire time. It only protects you from the other person and their guild, and vice versa; it doesn't cover passers-by, friends, or happenstance. That's been mitigated somewhat - but it still cannot be used anonymously or via aliases, as far as I'm aware, so there is limited usage for it for many people.

4. A lot of antagonism is in the background, in secret, or handled via plots; far more goes on that way than what happens in public. Usually, you have to go looking for it in some way."

Leta nods at HIEROPHANT.

Vayl nods.

Leta states, "This is true. There was also, from what I've seen, a lot of antagonism on grid this week. But it's not the 'standing in Church Square cackling as your burn down Town Hall' sort of antagonism. It was threats, scheming, mage presence, subversion, etc."

Vayl declares, "If in doubt, go find the thing you feel you're missing!"

Leta declaims to Vayl, "Or be the thing you feel the game is missing!"

Leta grins.

Vayl claims, "... What do you think this character is lol"

Vayl eyes their surroundings warily.

Leta grins at Vayl.

Leta states, "Very fair."

Temi grins.

Ghed says, "Alright, I think we've discussed this topic enough."

Ghed says to Audrey, "Thanks for bringing your perspectives in."

Ghed questions, "Did anyone have any other topics to raise?"

Edison states, "I think I'm good"

Sue is idle.

HIEROPHANT claims, "Nothing immediately comes to mind."

Taxius claims, "I got a topic"

Ghed pontificates to Taxius, "Yep? Let's hear it quick!"

Sue is no longer idle.
Sue has returned from AFK.

Taxius says, "We can't diagnose ourselves as Physicians. Maybe that is intended, but it makes helping inexperienced Players difficult. And we also can't make medical studies on our own characters happen. Like I wanted to test what we need to do about Wound rot, because there is no correct information about it written anywhere and I can't even look at the symptoms or stages, if I infect myself. It makes stuff harder than it needs to be."

Temi says, "Just being able to conveniently infect yourself with exactly what you want to study could sound a bit convenient"

Audrey states, "Sounds like mad scientist to me."

Edison questions, "What if he rped rolling around in sewage with an open wound?"

Leta claims, "I believe this is a bug that Eurus has already fixed."

Ghed states, "Ahhhh"

Leta states, "He moved your bug note to changes."

Temi claims, "Probably just waiting for a reboot then."

Temi nods.

Leta nods.

Temi says, "Though please still keep in mind reasonable ICness of things."

Leta states, "He usually accumulates 5-10 changes before rolling us over."

Taxius states, "We are rping rolling wounds in sewage. XD It's really wound rot just currently. Physicians that were around when this got introduced, never wrote anything down. The books are too old to be correct so.. we are doing some guess work."

Leta says, "Infect does have a cooldown."

Audrey declaims, "That's the beauty of learning the system by yourself, exploration!"

Taxius questions, "We can also just make a plot, if staff prefer that?"

HIEROPHANT claims, "For future reference, the note number of a note posted to the bug board shows how many other notes are on the bug board ahead of yours. They usually don't get responses unless clarification is needed to understand the problem. You'll typically get a QP when the bug you reported is fixed; it's safe to assume your bug report is something staff are aware of once you've reported it, it's watched pretty rigorously in my experience."

Temi states, "Interacting with other people is what this is all about."

Temi grins.

Taxius claims, "Yeah well, they were all wrong, so we really don't know how to treat it."

Vayl exclaims, "Just invent penicillin or something smh, easy!"

Leta claims, "Not sure how that happened, but if that's the case sure, plot away."

Audrey pontificates, "Knowledge is lost and gained all the time, experimentation is the key!"

Vayl states, "More seriously, seems like a plot is the best resolution here, from my ignorant point of view."

Audrey claims, "If all else fails, vodka on the open wound never killed anyone."

Leta says to Taxius, "Plot is fine, though I do think there are people around grid and in the physicians who DO know what's up with Wound Rot, so they might be a good first resource."

Leta claims, "Plots should work, and infection and investigation from others IC should as well"

HIEROPHANT says, "You could try looking around for and sending a letter to retired physicians for other opinions, as well; people do shift guilds from time to time."

Ghed questions to Taxius, "I'd say that's two viable options, plot and mail, does that look workable for you?"

Taxius states, "Yeah"

Ghed claims, "Excellent"

Ghed declaims, "I think we're out of time!"

Ghed says, "Please remember to post rumors, cnote discoveries, and recommend each other for meaningful RP =)"

Dalton declaims, "Support your local merchants. Always reach out to merchants and talk to them about commissions. We love the RP about it and it will generate RP for you and them!"

Kalana nods in agreement.

Audrey exclaims, "Do Crime! Bother Reeves!"

Ghed trails off, "Engaging warp drives in 3..."

Ghed trails off, "2..."

Vayl runs away.

Ghed trails off, "1..."
Resident Savage Player / Expert - Currently Not a Savage though

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