One of the things I love about this new version of TI is that we've put the game back into the hands of the players, for the most part.
The Pros:
- Aforementioned hands of the players.
- We don't have imms sitting in each GL slot, hogging it and making it impossible for the GL fun to cycle through the players and so on.
- Players aren't afraid of angering their GLs due to possible OOC backlash from staff, and if they do anger the staff, it's not going to cripple their gameplay/advancement paths.
The Cons:
- It's hard to staff our current TI because the players that show the most aptitude tend to be the GLs.
- It hampers some of the imm enjoyment of the game when we cannot really reach for full potential character goals.
- We don't have enough players to play all the roles available, so some things languish for wont of play.
What's your opinion?
Immortal GLs
I think Imms should be able to fill a position that remains empty for one OOC month, signaling that no one is going to fill it. Currently, there are three empty spots that have been empty for a very long time. With these spots filled, it truly opens up a large avenue of RP. I sincerely believe that the staff can distinguish between IC and OOC and be mature enough to keep from harming players based on OOC encounters.
You know, I think you're right that staff can handle it and be mature. What I think I'm not sure of is if the player base at large would not feel threatened or controlled by staff if staff held these positions.
One of the chief points of anger with TI:A was that the implementor had and held most of the favored guild positions as the main GL, and, in holding so many of those positions, wasn't really active enough to fulfill any of them to a degree for good play. This was the ultimate buckling point for TI:A that I spoke to the implementor about before I agreed to co-Imp with Sephone.
Even before this became the case, Sephone and I noted that TI:2 had an issue where the imms just have a lot of OOC exposure to one another in immland and tend to form some sort of hegemony of opinion simply because we're a harmonious group. Also, once staff are in roles, they tend to live a long time. In part, I think it's a competency issue, and in part, I think it may be because people DO treat staff PCs a bit differently and avoid harming them. The result of this is that the game doesn't cycle as well as it should. The best game is one where the roles come up for people to try something new every now and again.
One of the chief points of anger with TI:A was that the implementor had and held most of the favored guild positions as the main GL, and, in holding so many of those positions, wasn't really active enough to fulfill any of them to a degree for good play. This was the ultimate buckling point for TI:A that I spoke to the implementor about before I agreed to co-Imp with Sephone.
Even before this became the case, Sephone and I noted that TI:2 had an issue where the imms just have a lot of OOC exposure to one another in immland and tend to form some sort of hegemony of opinion simply because we're a harmonious group. Also, once staff are in roles, they tend to live a long time. In part, I think it's a competency issue, and in part, I think it may be because people DO treat staff PCs a bit differently and avoid harming them. The result of this is that the game doesn't cycle as well as it should. The best game is one where the roles come up for people to try something new every now and again.
Perhaps when they take their position, they are entitled to it for a certain amount of time (6OOC Months or less) and then either step down, are removed, killed, whatever fits the position if someone apps for it at that point. If no one wants it still, they can keep it. Generally, they would not be the main GL, and they might decline promotion to it in the event that it becomes available. This would prevent them from having -too- much power, but I would still not have any problem playing with the Imms as GL, personally.
I honestly think staff having GL roles is okay assuming they abide by the same rules applied to players: One GL per person, GL is still kickable by guild vote or council vote, etc. It's not like we have players lining up for GL spots anyway. I think in TI:A a significant complaint was not that the imm held a GL spot, but rather that the imm held several, and there was no way to have them removed?
I do think staff should shy away from positions in which too much OOC knowledge is a very bad thing - it is not that I don't trust them to handle it, it's just that it... I dunno... takes away the uncertainty aspect of things? IE Justiciar, Queen, Cardinal, GI, etc. But that's a very difficult thing to implement in that the question arises: Where do we draw the line?
I do think staff should shy away from positions in which too much OOC knowledge is a very bad thing - it is not that I don't trust them to handle it, it's just that it... I dunno... takes away the uncertainty aspect of things? IE Justiciar, Queen, Cardinal, GI, etc. But that's a very difficult thing to implement in that the question arises: Where do we draw the line?
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registerednuisance
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:47 pm
I don't like it. I've been an imm and a GL.
Being an IMM is awesome because all the dirty little secrets you never knew before, never were privvy to, or never were 'cool enough' to be in on, either are common knowledge, or you view it, or have to help out with. You know secrets that should go unknown permanently, like code things/magic/areas. You can't un-know that stuff. It's very difficult to be privvy to all of this information and remain totally unbiased. I might go as far to say impossible. Imm GLs live a long, long time - and what do you do if a player posts a note asking for RP assist against (not to kill, since obv that's not gonna happen) an ImmGL. The imm can read that on accident because all notes show to all imms, if it's the same here. If you're just 'note read' 'note read' 'note read' "OH! JOHN IS GONNA KILL MY CROPS!Wait, I ought not know that. Okay, don't be mad at JOhn, don't suspect John..." whether you lean too far to the "don't accuse them" or they're on your mind constantly and you try to justify accusing them... does htis example make sense? I am so fried tonight.
One of the reasons I tried this mud was knowing that Imms=!GLs. It's too much power. I hope I didn't offend anyone, that is truly NOT my intent.
Being an IMM is awesome because all the dirty little secrets you never knew before, never were privvy to, or never were 'cool enough' to be in on, either are common knowledge, or you view it, or have to help out with. You know secrets that should go unknown permanently, like code things/magic/areas. You can't un-know that stuff. It's very difficult to be privvy to all of this information and remain totally unbiased. I might go as far to say impossible. Imm GLs live a long, long time - and what do you do if a player posts a note asking for RP assist against (not to kill, since obv that's not gonna happen) an ImmGL. The imm can read that on accident because all notes show to all imms, if it's the same here. If you're just 'note read' 'note read' 'note read' "OH! JOHN IS GONNA KILL MY CROPS!Wait, I ought not know that. Okay, don't be mad at JOhn, don't suspect John..." whether you lean too far to the "don't accuse them" or they're on your mind constantly and you try to justify accusing them... does htis example make sense? I am so fried tonight.
One of the reasons I tried this mud was knowing that Imms=!GLs. It's too much power. I hope I didn't offend anyone, that is truly NOT my intent.
I want to say that I agree with Registered Nuisance about knowing things, long life, and whatnot.
One thing I do want to add, though, is that imms on this version of TI cannot read notes that are not addressed to us on the boards. This said, yes we can still accidentally or even purposefully find out information about plots and other things aimed at our characters.
I actually have some RP on right now where I've had to purposefully put in my desc notes: "My character does not know X, but I know X OOCly. I do not feel she has enough information to put X together, but she has pieces A B and G of the puzzle." There's a good possibility, if I'm honest, that I'll have A-Z far sooner than would otherwise happen simply because I know the answer already and can seek the pieces out, or view them in the correct manner that someone who didn't know what the puzzle result would look like couldn't do. In short, as I mentioned elsewhere, OOC info poisons all who touch it, even those who genuinely try not to. You can't unknow what you know.
I'm deeply honored that TI's pbase respects their imms well enough to trust us holding specific roles. I do think my personal bias that this is a good rule and just loving seeing how players have taken ownership of the game in the IC arena will probably keep me from changing the rules, barring a lot of imm peer pressure.
Oh yeah, and the community vote says that, even though some of the pbase trusts us - many of them don't! :)
One thing I do want to add, though, is that imms on this version of TI cannot read notes that are not addressed to us on the boards. This said, yes we can still accidentally or even purposefully find out information about plots and other things aimed at our characters.
I actually have some RP on right now where I've had to purposefully put in my desc notes: "My character does not know X, but I know X OOCly. I do not feel she has enough information to put X together, but she has pieces A B and G of the puzzle." There's a good possibility, if I'm honest, that I'll have A-Z far sooner than would otherwise happen simply because I know the answer already and can seek the pieces out, or view them in the correct manner that someone who didn't know what the puzzle result would look like couldn't do. In short, as I mentioned elsewhere, OOC info poisons all who touch it, even those who genuinely try not to. You can't unknow what you know.
I'm deeply honored that TI's pbase respects their imms well enough to trust us holding specific roles. I do think my personal bias that this is a good rule and just loving seeing how players have taken ownership of the game in the IC arena will probably keep me from changing the rules, barring a lot of imm peer pressure.
Oh yeah, and the community vote says that, even though some of the pbase trusts us - many of them don't! :)
My personal take as the one 'Maybe/Restricted' voter...
As I see at the moment, we're always just a couple of players short of having a full house GL wise, and the imms that I interact with are all very competent as people, and many as former GLs on previous TIs.
I'd just have one restriction that I'd like to see in place, and that is that imm alts could only ever be the 2nd GL of a guild. This way, they can be a useful addition administrator/go-to person for the guild, but the ultimate decisions and power always rests with a dedicated member of the players. I think that that is the best way to get the right mix of imm player-alts being useful but not having them be ultimate authors of the game.
I think one of the worst things on the previous TI that hammered one of the nails into it's coffin was a certain imm holding 3 GL spots.
Just my take on things,
Charm.
As I see at the moment, we're always just a couple of players short of having a full house GL wise, and the imms that I interact with are all very competent as people, and many as former GLs on previous TIs.
I'd just have one restriction that I'd like to see in place, and that is that imm alts could only ever be the 2nd GL of a guild. This way, they can be a useful addition administrator/go-to person for the guild, but the ultimate decisions and power always rests with a dedicated member of the players. I think that that is the best way to get the right mix of imm player-alts being useful but not having them be ultimate authors of the game.
I think one of the worst things on the previous TI that hammered one of the nails into it's coffin was a certain imm holding 3 GL spots.
Just my take on things,
Charm.
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