I think we are opening a Pandora's box if we start restricting groups of characters because of vague annoyances. Kidchars get out of control. Nobles are elitist. Lawgivers push people around. Mages are twinkish. Find me one group of people that NO ONE complains about.
If there is a complaint about how someone is acting ICly, then respond to it through IC channels and offer consequences, imho. If it is a specific player and they are behaving in a way that is deemed inappropriate, then perhaps the imms will have to step in and deal with those complaints. But putting restrictions on a group of characters because of what has been said here seems a very, very bad precedent to set.
Child Characters
I agree with Callista entirely, and my suggestion about opening a poll for mages was meant to be sarcastic/ironic. Child chars aren't hurting anyone, it's different, and yeah not all of us do so perfectly, but rather than say 'no more, bad players!' why not -foster- and -encourage- RP? I liked wilderops suggestion of giving a general idea of how kids are treated. Expand on the guidelines for how children should behave, and more importantly, if a single player is playing a child inappropriately(Not just by being obnoxious, but by being too smart, too mature, too immature, etc. then pull them aside and give them your concerns.) I'm surprised to say this, given that I'm such a complainer (though I'm -trying- to fix that), but we really need to try to be more tolerant of people. AFAIK no one has to be subjected to child char RP if they don't want to, so... yeah.
I have played (greater than 1) child chars, and my problems have little to do with whether or not the kids can be punished -- it's the damnably bad RP (characters improperly or poorly rendered, based upon their age, etc) that gets me, and I think other people would admit to similar if they weren't scared of offending the rabid current holders of child chars.
I'm mostly posting this to counter Onasaki's base generalizations. It is actually possible for me to disagree with you, and to do so without being motivated by blind hatred OR lack of experience. I don't know which child char you play, but as for me, there's some I've enjoyed, there's some I've disliked -- the second category far outweighing the former, in this current iteration of TI.
All of this being said, I think I am no longer in favor of the idea of apps for characters below the age of 13. Let people do what shitty RP they will: I have thus far avoided most scenes involving it, and will continue to do so. I think I agree it's not the job of policy to make people not suck -- that's something they'll have to figure out on their own (eventually, hopefully).
I'm mostly posting this to counter Onasaki's base generalizations. It is actually possible for me to disagree with you, and to do so without being motivated by blind hatred OR lack of experience. I don't know which child char you play, but as for me, there's some I've enjoyed, there's some I've disliked -- the second category far outweighing the former, in this current iteration of TI.
All of this being said, I think I am no longer in favor of the idea of apps for characters below the age of 13. Let people do what shitty RP they will: I have thus far avoided most scenes involving it, and will continue to do so. I think I agree it's not the job of policy to make people not suck -- that's something they'll have to figure out on their own (eventually, hopefully).
I just want a real reason. A real reason for any of this to even be brought up. Something beyond "They annoy me." "They're obnoxious." "They do it to skirt responsibility."
I can tell you right here, and right now, that one of the current people who play a kid character is a parent, themself. And if they can dive into the RP, and not have any problems with it, then why can't anyone else? Why is it SUCH a touchy subject? Why are SO many people against it? Give me a real reason.
I've seen so much kidchar RP in my 8 years of RPing, terrible, bad, good, great, and generally bad ass. I know what to look for, and what to crack down on. And I know what sort of criticism to give. I also know what is and isn't realistic, being as I am a student of child psychology.
My rage-rants are mainly due to the sheer STRESS I've gone through in the past regarding this subject. And it's always the same bloody thing. People are bias, based on poor RP they've seen that has set the bar for them. And as far as I'm concerned, there are no real problems ingame. I know everything that goes on regarding the current kid characters.
I can tell you right here, and right now, that one of the current people who play a kid character is a parent, themself. And if they can dive into the RP, and not have any problems with it, then why can't anyone else? Why is it SUCH a touchy subject? Why are SO many people against it? Give me a real reason.
I've seen so much kidchar RP in my 8 years of RPing, terrible, bad, good, great, and generally bad ass. I know what to look for, and what to crack down on. And I know what sort of criticism to give. I also know what is and isn't realistic, being as I am a student of child psychology.
My rage-rants are mainly due to the sheer STRESS I've gone through in the past regarding this subject. And it's always the same bloody thing. People are bias, based on poor RP they've seen that has set the bar for them. And as far as I'm concerned, there are no real problems ingame. I know everything that goes on regarding the current kid characters.
I RP'ed with 4 children....literally popping out of nowhere, as children normally do. I am finding it hard to see what the complaint is....
On top of that, if your going to start APPing children, while not start APPing nobility as well? Make the only available free and unrestricted purchase a freeman, or Gentry?
As I said, I am still trying to figure out what the big complaint was, whomever the child characters were last night seem to act perfectly fine, in role with the character of a child.
On top of that, if your going to start APPing children, while not start APPing nobility as well? Make the only available free and unrestricted purchase a freeman, or Gentry?
As I said, I am still trying to figure out what the big complaint was, whomever the child characters were last night seem to act perfectly fine, in role with the character of a child.
I'd like to touch on a couple of points raised previously, although I'm not going to get involved in the overall debate as I've found the vehemence in some posts (Onasaki) rather daunting and not conducive to debate.
Sisters of St Celeste are currently around as a lay (church/crown sponsored, but not run) organisation of volunteers, but dedicated more to philanthropy, funding of public works etc on a more macro scale- rather than taking personal charge of individual orphans. They'd likely be funneling money into the orphanage, for example. They have a couple of player reps, to the best of my knowledge.
I think that requiring a guardian would be a reasonable requirement. Most kids in a world as ICly oppressive as Lithmore would have a guardian (99% +) or forced into having one or simply shipped off to mines/labor camps. That said, I could see some slipping through the cracks (in downtrodden southside, for example, rather than gentrified northern Lithmore).
Also, just to address the difficulty of being/having a guardian. Being dragged down because the kid is acting up? Perfectly IC for the actions of family/friends to pull you right down with them either intentionally or accidentally. Guardian going idle? Same problem with having other family members or even fellow guildies not logging on when you have RP waiting for them. I don't think anyone would expect players of guardians to be ever-present in the child's scenes, or even often present, but just someone with ultimate responsibility.
As for targeting kids for their actions- doesn't bother me, and I'm quite happy to do so. Hell, I now have a reputation for being the first Queen to arrest a 1-week old- who, naturally, is too young to be guilty of anything. I will note however, that some of the OOC commentary that I saw on the subject bothered me a little, with regards a feeling that I was being villified by the modern 'think of the children' mindset that has been referred to elsewhere in thread.
Lastly, I don't think an admin specifically for child characters would be very viable, it is a very narrow purview in the grand scheme of things- if this is really needed (which I don't think it is), it could be wrapped into the duties of another imm without much drama.
Sisters of St Celeste are currently around as a lay (church/crown sponsored, but not run) organisation of volunteers, but dedicated more to philanthropy, funding of public works etc on a more macro scale- rather than taking personal charge of individual orphans. They'd likely be funneling money into the orphanage, for example. They have a couple of player reps, to the best of my knowledge.
I think that requiring a guardian would be a reasonable requirement. Most kids in a world as ICly oppressive as Lithmore would have a guardian (99% +) or forced into having one or simply shipped off to mines/labor camps. That said, I could see some slipping through the cracks (in downtrodden southside, for example, rather than gentrified northern Lithmore).
Also, just to address the difficulty of being/having a guardian. Being dragged down because the kid is acting up? Perfectly IC for the actions of family/friends to pull you right down with them either intentionally or accidentally. Guardian going idle? Same problem with having other family members or even fellow guildies not logging on when you have RP waiting for them. I don't think anyone would expect players of guardians to be ever-present in the child's scenes, or even often present, but just someone with ultimate responsibility.
As for targeting kids for their actions- doesn't bother me, and I'm quite happy to do so. Hell, I now have a reputation for being the first Queen to arrest a 1-week old- who, naturally, is too young to be guilty of anything. I will note however, that some of the OOC commentary that I saw on the subject bothered me a little, with regards a feeling that I was being villified by the modern 'think of the children' mindset that has been referred to elsewhere in thread.
Lastly, I don't think an admin specifically for child characters would be very viable, it is a very narrow purview in the grand scheme of things- if this is really needed (which I don't think it is), it could be wrapped into the duties of another imm without much drama.
Just dashing off before class:
I think childchars should necessarily have a much lower str max limit than adult chars - and really less stats to spend in general, to reflect real life. It makes absolutely no sense to have a 8 year old child char win a str contest against an adult (and yes, I have lost str contests to kids before on an above-average str char... makes me wonder if people actually choose stats to reflect their chars? Unless said char was a Shaolin monk trainee or something, which he wasn't). Doing such will allow people to offer them IC consequences (RPing grabbing them and hauling them off, etc) without needing to be a horrible villain and use arrest/combat code.
I think childchars should necessarily have a much lower str max limit than adult chars - and really less stats to spend in general, to reflect real life. It makes absolutely no sense to have a 8 year old child char win a str contest against an adult (and yes, I have lost str contests to kids before on an above-average str char... makes me wonder if people actually choose stats to reflect their chars? Unless said char was a Shaolin monk trainee or something, which he wasn't). Doing such will allow people to offer them IC consequences (RPing grabbing them and hauling them off, etc) without needing to be a horrible villain and use arrest/combat code.
Last edited by Estelle on Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
I speak from the heart. In everything I've said. I'm just sick and tired of seeing kidchars being restricted, limited, and otherwise treated as lepers.
Granted, there are a few things, that really would make sense. Guardians and what not. While I've spoken out against them, it's mainly due to the fact that I have a current character on another game, who is being absolutely ignored by their guardian. And is hitting some nerves.
I'm not entirely for guardians, but I'm not entirely against them either. I just think, it limits RP as a whole. Especially if said guardian gets burned out. This entire ordeal, has hit me at a personal level, because I don't like my roleplay, and others being limited by someone basically saying: "I don't like you. Go away."
I've never actually insulted, anyone in any of my posts. I spoke strictly from observation, and what I know about the current people who have spoken out against child characters. Strictly speaking, I was mostly right. Though I really don't mean to sound offensive.
I say again, this strikes me at a personal level because of the things I've dealt with in the past. Not to mention the freedom of age was one of the main things that drew me into the game to begin with. The theme, and the concept were the first things, and the freedom of age was the thing that cemented it.
As for that last post, yes, I agree that stat limits should be put in as well. But that's a code issue.
Granted, there are a few things, that really would make sense. Guardians and what not. While I've spoken out against them, it's mainly due to the fact that I have a current character on another game, who is being absolutely ignored by their guardian. And is hitting some nerves.
I'm not entirely for guardians, but I'm not entirely against them either. I just think, it limits RP as a whole. Especially if said guardian gets burned out. This entire ordeal, has hit me at a personal level, because I don't like my roleplay, and others being limited by someone basically saying: "I don't like you. Go away."
I've never actually insulted, anyone in any of my posts. I spoke strictly from observation, and what I know about the current people who have spoken out against child characters. Strictly speaking, I was mostly right. Though I really don't mean to sound offensive.
I say again, this strikes me at a personal level because of the things I've dealt with in the past. Not to mention the freedom of age was one of the main things that drew me into the game to begin with. The theme, and the concept were the first things, and the freedom of age was the thing that cemented it.
As for that last post, yes, I agree that stat limits should be put in as well. But that's a code issue.
I think a 'permanent' stat reducing type affect would be a good idea, time does, afaik, go 4x faster than IRL, so assuming the mud is still up and running a year from now, most of the children will become adolescents or even young adults. With that thought in mind I picked stats based on an adult, but I've never tried to have a contest of physical stats against an adult, other than maybe dexterity, because that isn't realistic.
I think if someone contests an 8 year old via strength, the smart thing to do would be to send the person a tell or osay and let them know they won. A coded, perma-debuff is fine, but it just puts more strain on Az and takes time away from actual issues. Can't we just keep that IC as well? I mean, if a ten year old was able to beat me in an arm wrestling match IRL, I'd think the little snot was a superhuman. So.. why not apply that to IC, but call that person a mage, or supernatural? It just requires kid char players to play more responsibility, it won't cause time to be, IMO, wasted by Az, and it'll weed out/be interesting roleplay for those who do silly things like win an arm wrestling match against a musclebound adult, or what have you.
I think if someone contests an 8 year old via strength, the smart thing to do would be to send the person a tell or osay and let them know they won. A coded, perma-debuff is fine, but it just puts more strain on Az and takes time away from actual issues. Can't we just keep that IC as well? I mean, if a ten year old was able to beat me in an arm wrestling match IRL, I'd think the little snot was a superhuman. So.. why not apply that to IC, but call that person a mage, or supernatural? It just requires kid char players to play more responsibility, it won't cause time to be, IMO, wasted by Az, and it'll weed out/be interesting roleplay for those who do silly things like win an arm wrestling match against a musclebound adult, or what have you.
Need a real reason? Read up for mine: it's the shallow, uninteresting characters that a lot of children typify that constitutes my personal reason. I've personally witnessed it derail RP on more than one occasion, in my opinion. I don't know that it gets more concrete than that: my problem is that children chars suck, in a lot of cases. Melodrama is sometimes the core of plot, I'll give you that, but child chars often steal the stage in a way that is more destructive than constructive. Worse yet, such characters frequently fail to reflect their age realistically, and it breaks my suspension of disbelief.Onasaki wrote:I just want a real reason. A real reason for any of this to even be brought up. Something beyond "They annoy me." "They're obnoxious." "They do it to skirt responsibility."
[...]
Why is it SUCH a touchy subject? Why are SO many people against it? Give me a real reason.
None of the proposed solutions you have given would even come close to adequately addressing those concerns. I've said everything I can short of calling out specific characters for specific RP, which I will not do in a forum such as this.
Like I said, I no longer support regulating child chars -- some people obviously have a deep-seated fixation on recreating childhood that goes far beyond a normal/healthy interest in storytelling. Let them sate their needs.
Last edited by mattc on Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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