I think we need a help file on how culture treats these children. In modern times children are given much more leeway than in medieval times. In those times it's my understanding that as soon as you began acting like an adult or were capable of being a functional person, you were treated as an adult. People died in their twenties.
As a comparison people in roman times did not even name their children until they were five because children so commonly died early on, people did not want to get attached. I point this out to show just how different our modern views of children are from the medieval views of children.
We should -not- allow modern views to shape medieval customs, we need to create help files saying how the average noble treats commoners, how the average adult treats children and acting differently than the norms should require approval from the imms, because right now it seems like 90% of the nobles treat commoners like modern day liberals and 90% of the pbase treats children and beggars in the same way.
Status in society is supposed to mean something or we might as well just be playing The Inquisition: New York City 2011 edition.
Another point is I've seen one person playing an eight year old character as if it was a thirteen year old character. There is almost no way to police...
For this reason I've voted that we should not allow child characters. Unless significant policies are changed and people show more maturity with regard to child characters then I can't see it working.
And for the record I was not one of the people who complained about child characters, I had considered doing so, but decided not to because I tend to just want to let people rp whatever they want. If you don't let them do that then we just end up with less players.
Child Characters
While the idea for a guardian is good in thought, execution is a bit different. And yes, someone was planning to make the Sisters of St. Celeste. I have no idea what happened with it.
Honestly, I don't think the complainers have ever played kidchars. Infact, most of the people who have made a comment here, for restriction, have probably never played a kidchar before. This is because I've noticed everyone who is against restriction has probably at least played 1 kidchar in their entire TI career.
I don't agree with either 'solution'. Kids shouldn't be restricted. And enforcing a legal guardian is basically forcing RP onto people who either have IC reasons to not be a part of the orphanage, or would rather play a street urchin. Not every child in history was part of the local orphanage. Plus, if we have a guardian enforced, then what do we do about RP if said guardian isn't around?
I've played both sides of the coin, playing without a Guardian is more rewarding then playing with one. Simply because, if the guardian is a PC then there's the chance that they will not be around when needed, or they'll limit too much. And enforcing a vNPC guardian...that just takes the word 'twinking' to a whole 'nother level.
However, I do have some idea as to what we can do about it. How about appointing an admin, who will over-see the kidchar RP? It solves the issues of lack of 'guardianship', it doesn't restrict them entirely, and it doesn't force people to drop apps unless it's for a very specific type of kidcharacter. Illegit heirs and what not. I figure this idea, would be better suited, and work in everyone's favor.
Honestly, I don't think the complainers have ever played kidchars. Infact, most of the people who have made a comment here, for restriction, have probably never played a kidchar before. This is because I've noticed everyone who is against restriction has probably at least played 1 kidchar in their entire TI career.
I don't agree with either 'solution'. Kids shouldn't be restricted. And enforcing a legal guardian is basically forcing RP onto people who either have IC reasons to not be a part of the orphanage, or would rather play a street urchin. Not every child in history was part of the local orphanage. Plus, if we have a guardian enforced, then what do we do about RP if said guardian isn't around?
I've played both sides of the coin, playing without a Guardian is more rewarding then playing with one. Simply because, if the guardian is a PC then there's the chance that they will not be around when needed, or they'll limit too much. And enforcing a vNPC guardian...that just takes the word 'twinking' to a whole 'nother level.
However, I do have some idea as to what we can do about it. How about appointing an admin, who will over-see the kidchar RP? It solves the issues of lack of 'guardianship', it doesn't restrict them entirely, and it doesn't force people to drop apps unless it's for a very specific type of kidcharacter. Illegit heirs and what not. I figure this idea, would be better suited, and work in everyone's favor.
I'd like to see the ward requirement thing, myself. Age restrictions are fine as is, as I see it- my problem is just that I think people are taking the age aspect (being young, not involved in things, not responsible for things,) and adding to that the rebellious, independent aspect of adult characters, by ignoring the orphanage or whatever sort of IC wards would be in place for them, whether it be parents, a priestess or the orphanage matron.
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registerednuisance
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:47 pm
I'm more free market than policed economy.
Hold the player responsible if there are specific complaints. I've been involved in some slightly unrealistic child RP, or some rebellious child RP, but nothing outlandish. Nothing that couldn't easily happen IRL. If the IC authorities aren't taking responsibility by punishing them (physically, curfews, servitude, whatever) then people should take their concerns ICly to said authority. If kids are breakin' the law tell the Justiciar and make him make the hard decisions.
I've heard of players OOCly complaining about hating kid chars JUST BECAUSE they hate kidchars. Not because of a specific instance, without naming a certain behavior, they just hate kid chars. And that's not a valid complaint. I don't know that any of the complaints Kin received were like that, but I have heard it.
Having a guardian is tough. What if the player gets too busy for a few weeks and something happens? What if they're just not online at the moment? Or they legit had no idea? Or if there's some stupid OOC thing that happens or bug that directly involves the child chair and somehow comes back on the IC guardian? Burn the matron of the orphanage because one kid did something is unreasonable. Or if they quit? Anything.
I think if the kids are being brats or in taverns when it's unreasonable to be or stepping out of line, IC consequences. Too much regulation makes for sad faces. I can't keep my EFFING train fo thought today, sorry about that. I had a great speech but it died.
Hold the player responsible if there are specific complaints. I've been involved in some slightly unrealistic child RP, or some rebellious child RP, but nothing outlandish. Nothing that couldn't easily happen IRL. If the IC authorities aren't taking responsibility by punishing them (physically, curfews, servitude, whatever) then people should take their concerns ICly to said authority. If kids are breakin' the law tell the Justiciar and make him make the hard decisions.
I've heard of players OOCly complaining about hating kid chars JUST BECAUSE they hate kidchars. Not because of a specific instance, without naming a certain behavior, they just hate kid chars. And that's not a valid complaint. I don't know that any of the complaints Kin received were like that, but I have heard it.
Having a guardian is tough. What if the player gets too busy for a few weeks and something happens? What if they're just not online at the moment? Or they legit had no idea? Or if there's some stupid OOC thing that happens or bug that directly involves the child chair and somehow comes back on the IC guardian? Burn the matron of the orphanage because one kid did something is unreasonable. Or if they quit? Anything.
I think if the kids are being brats or in taverns when it's unreasonable to be or stepping out of line, IC consequences. Too much regulation makes for sad faces. I can't keep my EFFING train fo thought today, sorry about that. I had a great speech but it died.
Another thing people aren't seeming to get, is this is a FANTASY MUD. Not everything is going to be perfect, not everything is going to realistic. I mean, for frak sakes we have MAGES running amuck. And ZOMBIES. Seriously, people are taking this way too serious.
I have to agree with the guy above me here, people complain about kidchars because they don't like KIDCHARS. There's no problems. No actual reasons. They just don't like kidchars, and because of that they want them restricted.
Which is exactly what I was saying before. People who complain about kidchars, have NEVER BEEN ONE. Therefore, have no experience from a player's point of view. Only based on what they see, and hear. If these people think they can do better, then by all means, make a kidchar. Show us the 'correct way'.
I don't see people complaining that mages aren't realistic, or that Noble Courts aren't realistic. Or that peasants aren't realistic. Or priests. Infact, people complain BECAUSE priests WERE too realistic. It just goes to show you, that people will complain ABOUT ANYTHING they DON'T LIKE.
So, I say, end this discussion entirely. And keep it the way it is.
I have to agree with the guy above me here, people complain about kidchars because they don't like KIDCHARS. There's no problems. No actual reasons. They just don't like kidchars, and because of that they want them restricted.
Which is exactly what I was saying before. People who complain about kidchars, have NEVER BEEN ONE. Therefore, have no experience from a player's point of view. Only based on what they see, and hear. If these people think they can do better, then by all means, make a kidchar. Show us the 'correct way'.
I don't see people complaining that mages aren't realistic, or that Noble Courts aren't realistic. Or that peasants aren't realistic. Or priests. Infact, people complain BECAUSE priests WERE too realistic. It just goes to show you, that people will complain ABOUT ANYTHING they DON'T LIKE.
So, I say, end this discussion entirely. And keep it the way it is.
I don't think settling it ICly will stop the complaints.
For the record, Onasaki, I'm in the realm of people who are not -fond- of childchars, and I have played one. Her name was Sinjoun and she got burned at the stake because she was kidnapped by a mage. She also was a mage.
It was fun RP, but when I look back at it, I was pretty unrealistic and I'm mortified at what I put people through after being on the other side of the fence.
For the record, yes a lot of the complaints are not against specific childchars, but just "I hate childchars". Some were specific, but nothing against policy. Rather, just viewed as obnoxious RP.
This said, if you look at the poll, it seems to me that, in general, the community agrees that child chars should be regulated in some form or another.
I've had the following suggestions how so far:
- banned below age 13
- application below age 13
- guardian required
- admin appointed
Any other suggestions?
For the record, Onasaki, I'm in the realm of people who are not -fond- of childchars, and I have played one. Her name was Sinjoun and she got burned at the stake because she was kidnapped by a mage. She also was a mage.
It was fun RP, but when I look back at it, I was pretty unrealistic and I'm mortified at what I put people through after being on the other side of the fence.
For the record, yes a lot of the complaints are not against specific childchars, but just "I hate childchars". Some were specific, but nothing against policy. Rather, just viewed as obnoxious RP.
This said, if you look at the poll, it seems to me that, in general, the community agrees that child chars should be regulated in some form or another.
I've had the following suggestions how so far:
- banned below age 13
- application below age 13
- guardian required
- admin appointed
Any other suggestions?
If we're going to restrict people on the basis that RP is obnoxious, can we open up a similar poll on mages being application only? Cause... from what I understand, if a kid char is being a nuisance, you can throw him out or walk away and not be irritated. A twink mage can screw with you from pretty much wherever they want, sometimes behind xblocks. If the only justification for this is because 7 people find child chars annoying, shouldn't they walk away? I just find it interesting that we're trying to restrict people for being a nuisance, but not causing any actual harm, and you can basically ICly 'turn the channel' by walking out or making them leave, but other behavior that -I- and others find irritating, like being spammed with hexes from a distance over the course of a week, add little to nothing to roleplay, are similarly irritating, and are unavoidable.
Sorry if that sounds bitter, but really, children are annoying in real life, that's probably why not a lot of adults have ten year old friends to hang out with. Tune them out, go somewhere else, etc. I don't see why you're restricting the people who are just trying to roleplay, but you're catering to the complainers. =/ I mean.. if you keep doing that, there won't be any mages or thieves either and all we'll do is sit around sipping tea and talking about the weather.
Sorry if that sounds bitter, but really, children are annoying in real life, that's probably why not a lot of adults have ten year old friends to hang out with. Tune them out, go somewhere else, etc. I don't see why you're restricting the people who are just trying to roleplay, but you're catering to the complainers. =/ I mean.. if you keep doing that, there won't be any mages or thieves either and all we'll do is sit around sipping tea and talking about the weather.
I don't think the pbase would back restricted mage apps in a poll. I do think I'm seeing the pbase is about evenly split, or slightly leaning towards wanting to restrict child characters, according to this poll.
Yes, lots of people find mage RP obnoxious too, and maybe I'll poll it one day when the complaints are irritating me to no end, but... not today. :)
Yes, lots of people find mage RP obnoxious too, and maybe I'll poll it one day when the complaints are irritating me to no end, but... not today. :)
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