Subversion has a bad rap

[Gerolf]

Le Sigh (Does anyone remember where that is from? I remember it being funny)

I think that we are still clustering in camps for whatever reason so I am going to try and rephrase some of my thoughts:

Subversion and support are by their definition personal. If you could target "Reeves" or "Gentry" those are general categories that target a population but since subverts and supports are targeted to one specific target they are in fact, personal. Shady or not is the point of the debate I think. I don't know that they are shady but there is a population that thinks that, for whatever reason.

Regarding taking action against people who get caught supporting/subverting "the wrong person": Actions have consequences. I have a couple of examples that are very applicable but sensitive and don't want to discuss them publicly without permission of the other players involved. But privately I will discuss them, from a one-sided approach. Suffice it to say that scorched earth can be thematic and appropriate.


Gambits, can backfire. Sometimes you subvert someone and they find out and will use their social power to prove a point, publicly or privately.

I am reminded of the scene from Kill Bill where we first meet Oren, and someone brings up her mixed heritage as a negative. That is a touch point for her, and she reacts appropriately for her character. (If you look up the scene on YouTube it is very NSFW)

You touch on a character's pressure point, and they will react, and it may be ICly appropriate that they make an example out of you. Case in point is Hazeia, It was ok for her to make examples of people who offended her. It is thematic and appropriate. It won her some allies and made her some enemies. That is ok.

Now on a personal note: I -loath- GLAs and subvert/support RP. I fully admit that when it is clear who is on the offensive, I usually will respond with the quickest way to shut them down, only because I don't find the RP fun or entertaining. I know some people do so I will indulge it for a bit but then I tend of negotiate ICly an end to it so I can move on to something I do find interesting.

[Tremere]

Rather than touch on something anyone specific says... I will just state that I used to love IP and the influence/support system. I thought it was great. But over time I've grown to hate the system. I think that initially, I loved the idea of it more than how it was implemented. I don't think we'll ever see it in a state where it's a... universally liked thing, not working with what we have now. How it is now does lends its self towards a combative nature with a combative response. There are very few ways in which to rp about it because you don't know who is subverting you most of the time and if you can figure it out it usually is more hassle than its worth because there are fundamental differences between those who are subverting each other. Which there is nothing wrong with that, but it leads to these subvert and subvert in kind situations. People may say it drives rp, but I've seen complaints about having to rp with the people you subvert and heard it asked to remove that requirement, so if it was to try and drive rp it isn't doing that.

All in all I'm just tired of the system and I'm finding little to love out of it anymore personally. It feels like more hassle than its worth.