Subversion has a bad rap

[Rabek]

Well, I mean...

It's an act that hurts other PCs (however mildly) with almost no way to defend against it or even know who is doing it.

Secretly hurting people is kind of one of the hallmarks of a shady thing, so it's not a perspective that's without basis.

I personally haven't felt like the support/IP system has worked since its inception, and I can't really think of a way to fix it short of scrapping it and designing some totally different system in its place.

[Azi]

I recall making a public GLA hit as Haizea, with my name attached and nothing going on "behind closed doors," with a list of things the GL could do to win back my support, and I was still complained about and labeled shady, so I wonder if it's more to do with hurting other characters at all or making their lives difficult? It seems like the support system as it's used is more about "do I like you" rather than "what can you do for me and my people." All that sort of reaction did was make me start doing GLAs anonymously with less useful information attached.

[Pixie]

I think that's the confirmation bias, Azi. Haizea made unreasonable demands and was a routine pain in the rear. It was kind of her schtick, and she was great fun as a result of it. Other people responding to it in the way that was appropriate for -them- shouldn't really be deterring, right? Isn't that the whole idea?

I wonder at the logic behind this. Haizea making peoples' lives difficult via subversion is perceived as a good thing, here, while them complaining about her doing so is seen as a reason not to use the subversion system. Why? Why would it be an expectation that no one would complain about something which inconveniences them? That's a pretty rational response, imo.

We can't expect people to be antagonized and only respond to it in the way which the antagonizer wanted.

[Azi]

Haizea didn't actually make many demands, but I'm willing to accept her early reputation (before staff posted all that stuff about whippings being thematic) really influenced how people perceived her later on. It was more that the response to her being a nuisance, being labeled as shady for disagreeing instead of playing nice, made the game basically unplayable, because it was the majority coming down hard on the outlier and perceiving every action the worst way possible. I just stopped playing when I became unable to have fun, as one does. It might just be the RP culture of TI, which you're right, I do not control. In the meantime I'm happy to only play lawfuls and keep my nose clean if I can't get the kind of RP I want out of rocking the boat.

[Dice]

So I've been thinking about this, and all the other various "lawfuls vs. 'chaotics'" threads lately. And, as much as I've been participant (and even instigator!) in some of them, I'm beginning to think we're running into a serious problem where we're all talking past each other.

In trying to be vague and avoiding naming specifics about other players, which is a totally understandable impulse, we word our issues in a way that makes them sound generic. And, because they DO sound generic, everyone who could possibly fit the bill feels they're being criticized. I don't think anyone is honestly complaining about their conflict being answered with more conflict, or consequences to their bad actions - I think this is coming from a sense that conflict is being answered with actions that END conflict completely.

It might be that our way forward, at this point, isn't in forum threads but in personal discussions, directly approaching the people who we feel are harming us and being really clear about the issues we're having. Otherwise, I think we run the risk of upsetting ourselves and each other too badly with the inherent vagueness of forum posts.

On topic, I 100% think subversion shouldn't be seen as personal or shady. Using GLAs to go after a guildleader should never be seen as the wrong or incorrect protocol, even if you disagree with why the GLA is being done - it is the legitimate system the game has provided to deal with GLs you want out and there is nothing ICly illegitimate with its use.

But we should definitely all be free to RP reactions against people - so long as we remember to do it in a way that brings the person in, and gives them RP in return for the RP they gave us. I think that might be the central tenet we can all agree on. If somebody throws some story your way, do your best to make sure your response throws them something back, within the boundaries of theme/reason.

So if somebody deals you a political hit somehow, don't relegate them to the sidelines - go out there and challenge them right back, without jumping to the quickest way to get them out of your hair!

And this is NOT me being vaguely accusatory to others, but thinking about my own RP. The challenges I threw at people that were more fun/low-stakes/less character-ending (thinking my duel with Casimir, with OOC agreement it was not lethal) were the most fun I ever had on TI, and the challenges when I went in guns-blazing thinking scorched earth (anybody remember Alphos's ousting?) tended to be more OOCly frustrating and unfun for everyone.

So if you find out you have a subverter/enemy, maybe the way to have the most fun isn't to talk to your friends about them being a bad person and then subverting them into oblivion right back... but confront them to EXPLAIN THEMSELVES!

tl;dr: Do it all for the lulz

[Pixie]

I love you Dice.

[Azi]

Yesss

[chronodbu]

Haizea didn't actually make many demands, but I'm willing to accept her early reputation (before staff posted all that stuff about whippings being thematic) really influenced how people perceived her later on. It was more that the response to her being a nuisance, being labeled as shady for disagreeing instead of playing nice, made the game basically unplayable, because it was the majority coming down hard on the outlier and perceiving every action the worst way possible. I just stopped playing when I became unable to have fun, as one does. It might just be the RP culture of TI, which you're right, I do not control. In the meantime I'm happy to only play lawfuls and keep my nose clean if I can't get the kind of RP I want out of rocking the boat.

Haizea was a disagreeable, difficult, character to handle in RP. She was fun for that reason but blaming everyone else because she roleplayed herself into a corner is unfair to the people she impacted. Lashings were very thematic - doing so in regular cadence solely for the purpose of trying to prove to everyone she was a strong noblewoman can, however, be taken as a villainous action ICly. A noblewoman isn't exactly a powerless outlier by any stretch of the imagination.

Part of "rocking the boat" is knowing that you can and most definitely will meet opposition. It pushes you out of social circles ICly and causes characters to react less than favorably nor does it allow you to get your objectives complete. You can't simply battering ram your way into getting what you want without taking into account everyone else involved. That's just not how this works.

At risk of sounding comedic - That's not how any of this works!

The sooner people understand that GLA has more to do with social circles, currying favor, and manipulation than it does just getting a few people to try to hammer at it, the sooner they'll come to enjoy the system more.

[Azi]

I don't mean to come off as though I'm blaming anyone =) just sharing what would make a more fun experience in my opinion; Dice pretty much keyed in on what I couldn't properly explain. I was pretty much excluded from RP at that point and am surprised to find out these are the assumptions about my character's motivations.

[The_Last_Good_Dragon]

But we should definitely all be free to RP reactions against people - so long as we remember to do it in a way that brings the person in, and gives them RP in return for the RP they gave us. I think that might be the central tenet we can all agree on. If somebody throws some story your way, do your best to make sure your response throws them something back, within the boundaries of theme/reason.

Absolutely this. This is a game about courting conflict and encouraging evil acts; while it might "make the most sense" to just slam your door when a Vampire comes knocking, where's the fun in that — for either the Vampire or you, the person being conflicted against? Invite conflict into your home— in the metaphor, I mean this as your personal RP circle— and keep your stakes sharpened and ready. Encourage results to reach a conclusion; let a fire burn, rather than stamp on the embers.

Part of "rocking the boat" is knowing that you can and most definitely will meet opposition. It pushes you out of social circles ICly and causes characters to react less than favorably nor does it allow you to get your objectives complete. You can't simply battering ram your way into getting what you want without taking into account everyone else involved. That's just not how this works.

I'm not sure you're understanding what we, or our characters want, if you think this is how it works. Instead of pushing people out of social circles ICly, I think we'd all find more enjoyment from the game by giving people— even, or especially, those hard-to-ICly-deal-with people like nobility— enough rope to actually hang themselves with rather than just kicking them off the scaffold and not letting them get back on at the first signs of trouble.