Log of OOC Meeting - 2021-05-29

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Sat May 29, 2021 8:37 pm

Kinaed claims, "Today's Agenda is:

   - Staff Updates
   - Player Heartbeat
   - Player Topics

Is there anything anyone would like to add to the agenda to make certain we discuss it today? If you register a topic, please pre-write it so you're ready to present it when called upon."

Rey claims, "Me please"

Kinaed states to Rey, "Got you"

Kinaed asks, "Anyone else?"

Sparkles says, "If there's time at the end I have a group think type question."

Lans says, "I am good, thanks"

Kitty head shakes.

Kinaed claims, "Staff Updates! This week, I met with staff to discuss antagonist RP, fixed up some of the website issues that were reported, and probably some other small bits."

Kinaed says, "I plan to continue speaking with staff about the antagonistic RP risk equation, and that's probably the biggest thing on my plate at the moment."

Kinaed claims to Eos, "You're up :)"

Kinaed says, "Going to go alphabetical this time."

Raspberries says, "Big topic."

Eos states, "I kickstarted the june plot with a letter. Helped out here and there but otherwise busy with another project for this and next week."

Kinaed nods at Raspberries.

Kinaed smiles at Eos.

Kinaed claims to Ghed, "Your turn :)"

Deedee questions, "Which letter is the June Plot brought to us by?"

Lans nods.

Ghed clears his throat

Kinaed muses, "... E for Eos? :)"

Ghed states, "Still going through RL business, so my activity has been low. I did lots of recommends and requests, many typos, lore entries, help files, some plots and item fixes too. Temi has helped me big time when I couldn't tackle everything in a timely manner."

Eos wonders, "Can you rephrase that question Delana?"

Kinaed smiles at Ghed.

SandMan pontificates, "Hip, hip, hooray for Ghed and Temi!"

Ghed states, "Thank you"

Deedee says to Eos, "Nope, Sesame Street reference."

Temi grins.

Kinaed says to Temi, "You're up :)"

Temi claims, "Had a little more focus on RL this week, but I did put in most of my effort into preparing for and running court earlier today.  Hopefully people enjoyed getting involved and the little bit of formality, as much as Amir does for that.  Beyond that, trying to help keep up with requests and plots.  And created a new craft this week of moustaches."

Anonymous asks, "Moustaches?"

Temi grins.

Kinaed smiles.

Temi claims, "Moustaches.  Did you need one?  See your local chandler.  And you can get a wig to go with it."

Civetta says, "Like wigs but for your face"

Temi nods at Kinaed.

Eos has created a decorated golden bracelet!

Anonymous claims, "Pfft. I just gotta wait a while and I'll get one without paying."

Raspberries claims, "That's great"

Anonymous claims, "And a beard to go with it"

Kinaed questions, "I think Salem may be afk - if you're there and want to jump in with an update, please let me know? :)"

Kitty trails off, ".... first OOC meeting I attended was about an hour after returning from like a 12 year hiatus, and the gift was a moustache. I accidentally wore it, then walked into a scene after the meeting, having no idea that I had a moustache on my face..."

Salem states, "Refactored the code and otherwise had a very slwo week."

Temi grins at Kitty.

Kinaed coughs with laughter on Kitty's story.

Ghed claims, "Salem speaks little, but means big things"

Kitty claims, "First scene back after over a decade, and I had to figure out why I was wearing a moustache. It was... kind of hilariously great."

Ghed states, "It's like saying 'just built a dam'"

Eos wonders, "Didnt you do some life code too? I recall something"

Deedee queries, "Life code?"

Temi says, "Live code."

Temi grins.

Salem says, "Uuuuh. I don't remember. too much code."

Eos states, "Live code"

Eos says, "Yea"

Deedee states, "Oh."

Murrmurs says, "Lyfe code."

Anonymous states, "Code for lyfe"

Anonymous states, "Oh god I'm stupid I should have used 4 instead of for"

Kitty claims to Anonymous, "Hindsight."

Kinaed muses, "Player Heartbeat - how was the game for people this week, folks?"

Deedee states, "Had one great, short scene. been swamped with RL otherwise. :("

Lans says, "Pleased with knight rp"

Temi has transferred Meow.  [OOC]

Temi gives a half-geode formed from rock sugar with crystals of purple to Meow.

Meow waves.

Meow eats a half-geode formed from rock sugar with crystals of purple.

Kitty states, "Stirring up trouble on one, being 'normal' on the other. Pretty good."

Deedee claims, "Not certain if I'll even make the 1 hour to stay active this week"

Ghed comforts Deedee.

Kinaed grins.

Anonymous states, "I have largely been keeping to myself, intentionally, outside of one or two players."

Kinaed comforts Deedee.

Jasmine says, "Loving getting into this alt's skin and stirring up trouble, so to speak, though I wish I could be on more"

Eos has gone AFK.

Murrmurs declares, "Hoping that Estone has been accessible to folks wanting Seneschalstuff. If he hasn't been, let me know!"

Deedee says, "By the way, today's RP locale is church square- I'll be there after the chat if anyone wants to blow up the town ha- err, have a quiet scene"

Kinaed queries to Anonymous, "Is that something that needs to change and people can facilitate it, or is it just a relaxing space for you?"

Kitty claims to Jasmine, "YEP. I blame you."

Cat claims, "I had some small scenes, but very enjoyable."

Kinaed smiles.

Rey claims, "Been doing mostly behind the scenes RP, like writing a book, and nice casual scenes. Very good."

Anonymous claims to Kinaed, "It's a result of IC events. An intentional decision on my character's part to sort of fade into the background. He will start to contact others shortly for various things though."

Kinaed smiles at Rey.

Kinaed smiles at Anonymous.

Sparkles claims, "Ah, I've had some interesting RP this week when I've been on."

Kinaed says, "Glad to hear it's not a game disatisfaction issue :)"

Kinaed says to Sparkles, "That's great to hear :)"

Kinaed questions, "Anyone have anything (that isn't a topic) shitting them that they want Staff to know about?"

Murrmurs claims, "Can i have a pet demon"

Kinaed says to Murrmurs, "Ask IC :P"

Ghed states, "Yes"

Kinaed claims to Ghed, "Shhhhh."

Temi claims, "If you're good, you might be able to be a pet for a demon."

Ghed nods.

Anonymous says, "No promises that it won't eat your face when you're sleeping."

Murrmurs states, "Hm."

Kitty claims to Murrmurs, "Only if I can ride it."

Kinaed states to Temi, "Teehee."

Kinaed nods at Anonymous.

Kinaed says to Anonymous, "That face eating thing is a real downside. :/"

Anonymous claims, "It is, yes."

Raspberries claims, "Depends on your kinks"

Lans claims, "I would not mind people being a little more religious =) if they aren't ICly against it ofc"

Temi claims, "And your face."

Temi nods at Raspberries.

Kinaed claims to Raspberries, "As the master of kinks, I agree."

Kinaed pontificates, "Okay, letsee... Player Topics!"

Civetta claims, "It has been somewhat difficult to be religious"

Kinaed comforts Civetta.

Kinaed says, "I think TI's religion, as a largely antagonistic setup, is designed that way alas."

Lans questions, "Are you addressing me, Kin?"

Kinaed says to Lans, "Civetta's comment."

Kinaed states, "Okay, thanks for now. "

Kinaed claims to Civetta, "If you want to catch up to discuss it more, please let me know."

Kinaed declaims, "Player Topics! :)"

Civetta states, "I'll keep at the pertinent parties."

Kinaed claims to Rey, "You're up first :)"

Rey states, "I wanted to discuss nobles. I believe nobles and how they are implemented, especially apped in nobles should be looked into. I also think the requirements of what a noble should be responsible for doing in game should be looked at. I have a few suggestions as well. Mostly, I feel that apping in as a noble is relatively easy and has no responsibility or accountability for a role that has limited spots."

Raspberries claims, "I'd be curious to hear your ideas."

Anonymous claims, "I have noticed that many app'd in nobles end up going inactive."

Kitty states, "I think nobles fall to inactive faster than others. More like GLs."

Kinaed says, "I'm happy to discuss. It's certainly a space that can still use improvement. In terms of no responsibility or accuontability, I disagree with that because there's similar activity requirements as per GLs."

Jasmine says, "I think the noble-discussion can always use more opinions but it's hard to implement most of them quickly. I'd love to hear more"

Temi states, "They are expected to uphold availability requirements that no one else has to, yeah.  Similar to GLs."

Kinaed claims, "Which is more than we require of most players in game. Going inactive is just annoying for most people, for nobles they lose the character."

Kinaed nods at Jasmine.

Kitty states, "There has been a trend of nobles poofing, though. And, this isn't just recent. It's years long."

Kinaed states, "That's true. I think it's for a lot of reasons, so I'm keen to hear more of Rey's views and thoughts."

Temi states, "I think most new characters poof, honestly.  It's just more noticeable for nobles."

Jasmine states, "I think that nobles largely suffer from a lack of self-starter attitudes and expect all RP to come to them--its a sort of viscious cycle where no one reaches out to nobles b/c theres never any and thus they are never reached out to, casing them to lose interest"

Kitty nods.

Kinaed states, "But largely I think it happens for a few reasons I'm happy to share."

Kinaed claims, "Firstly, because they're app-ins, it's rarely someone's main character."

Kitty states, "I think there's a lack of connection to an app'd in character, vs..... yeah."

Jasmine states, "It might be pertinent to request a solid IC goal alongside apps to ease that new-character listlessness"

Temi nods.

Civetta says, "The nobles who tend to be most successful have been the ones who have been ennobled after becoming otherwise socially established."

Rey states, "Sorry, I mean IC responsibility. Nobles are supposed to be running a duchy and I suggest that by being a noble it be a requirement to hold an ST intheir duchy. It doesn't have to be elaborate, but something to show they are present. It can be a party or something more elaborate like what Norrig did."

Temi claims, "Sometimes people catch it at the right time when they're prepared to switch main characters, or start fresh as one."

Kinaed states, "Secondly, because there are few active nobles, it's hard for nobles to get 'noble RP' which is intrinsic to the experience, so it's a bit of a self feeding doom cycle of not having enough nobles to RP with."

Kinaed says to Rey, "I think heaping more responsibility on those players before we can even retain them won't be helpful overall, sadly. I get what you're saying and why though."

Kinaed begins to descend.

Kinaed leaves down.

Kinaed steps out of your shadow. [OOC]

Kinaed says, "Sorry, cat stepped on my keyboard"

Kitty claims to Kinaed, "That is... yes. When I played a noble, I'd get noble RP for a while, and then they'd poof. I stayed mostly active, and liquidated for - honestly - extenuating circumstances that didn't necessarily relate to being a noble or the character at all. I liked her. But, I'm not going to be hopping at doing it again, anytime soon."

Anonymous says, "I haven't played a 'proper' noble, but having been a Great Lord, I sometimes found it tough to get RP that -wasn't- Council or noble RP. But then, that might because it was durnig the seneschalship, which is definitely more 'responsible' than most roles."

Raspberries states, "I've actually been considering a noble for my next character"

Temi claims, "We also do want to encourage more on-grid roleplay, rather than off-grid.  Though stories are great, I don't think we want to require off-grid ones, even if we could get people to do it."

Rey says, "I think they shouldn't app in if they can't handle the responsibility of being a noble. That sounds harsh but isn't it supposed to be a special position. We hold GLs to those same requirements, shouldn't nobles too."

Raspberries nods.

Jasmine claims, "I often consider nobles for my next character and then decide I don't have the time for them. Maybe one day."

Kinaed trails off, "I personally am inclined to remove applications for it and just make it a valid character choice right out of chargen... but there are problems with that because nobles require heavy setup and have big backgrounds in relevant, known IC history, etc"

Raspberries says, "Yeah, lack of time has been the case for me in general"

Murrmurs claims, "What does good noble activity look like to folks? They tend to be some of the more nuanced, hard-to-play characters... But also can produce some of the most concrete thematic play for folks."

Jasmine queries, "It might be best to keep apps but fast-track them, and maybe increase slots or remove slots entirely?"

Anonymous states, "I think that if you remove apps for it, we'll end up very noble-heavy. "

Kinaed nods at Murrmurs.

Kitty says, "Well, app in positions, from what I understand, are open to anyone - even brand new players. Whether it be GL app in or noble app in. I remember a discussion where we talked about having app ins be only for established players that know the theme/game/etc, but I think that was considered outside of the... uhm. Feeling of the game, something."

Kinaed states, "We might."

Rey says, "Honestly, I think it would be better to push more IC ennoblements. Characters that are already active and playing."

Kinaed nods at Anonymous.

Jasmine claims, "We will also get a heck-ton of unthemely nobles if it's open to everyone."

Kinaed says to Rey, "We worry it's not thematic or special if everyone does it."

Kinaed nods at Jasmine.

Kinaed claims, "There are some big downsides to that line of thinking, yep."

Deedee claims, "We already do get some"

Kinaed claims, "Which is why we haven't implemented it."

Jasmine states, "Sorry to  be theme police, but I don't think it should be an option for brand new players with no idea of what theme is."

Kinaed nods at Deedee.

Rey says, "I didn't suggest opening for everyone. I don't think that would work honestly."

Deedee claims, "It's still an option for new players"

Sparkles states, "I might say testing out playing a noble for an ST would allow someone to test if they think they would like it without apping them in, not liking it, and it being the same cycle. Especially considering how cataclysmic the "transfer" stories to a new noble tend to be. "

Jasmine states, "I frankly don't think brand new players should be allowed to play nobles at all, it's historically very bad for them"

Kinaed claims, "I'm theme police, but that's a gray scale for sure. Lightsabers are clearly not thematic. A noble who is nice and amicable about their station is more subjective and often gets called out for theme violation."

Kinaed claims, "Not sure I'd agree or bother with the latter."

Civetta claims, "Continuity is super important among nobles, and we already have former ones dying for weird uncharacteristic reasons to make room for new ones with apps in place."

Kinaed nods at Sparkles.

Kinaed nods at Civetta.

Deedee claims, "Yeah, I'd rather there be less dying for established nobles"

Deedee claims, "I think in the helpfile"

Kinaed states, "Another sister game handled it by making the game about freemen and making a baron the highest ruler of the game, etc. I understand towards the end they had visiting nobles and the like suddenly be PCs, so I don't know the experiment worked."

Deedee says, "It says the noble character can be transferred to someone else. I'd rather see that happen"

Kitty claims, "I think the app in positions, in general, should be carefully, carefully vetted - not only are we uncertain that brand new players that have never played here will remain, we don't know how well they will understand the theme."

Kinaed nods at Deedee.

Temi claims, "We have worked towards improving the documentation and continuity for new nobles"

Civetta says, "Also things that help nobles cope are roles that bridge the noble-everyone-else gap, court bards, chevaliers, people who wanna be agents or run odd jobs or clean house. We've had lots of those in past."

Kitty says, "Both for nobles and for GLs and other app in positions."

Kinaed wonders, "We've never actively done that, but maybe we shoudl start advertising existing nobles for people to pick up and try to play if someone loses their character?"

Kinaed states, "I'm not sure how easy/hard it is to transfer a PC from one pfile to another."

Lans questions, "Like a roster?"

Kinaed claims, "Er, from one account to another"

Kinaed nods at Lans.

Deedee claims, "That sounds good to me."

Rey states, "I agree, there are groups that can bridge the gaps between nobles, but noble players rarely reach out to those groups"

Kinaed claims, "Probably similar to what Firan used to do. Not sure how that played out for players though."

Kinaed nods at Rey.

Temi states, "We've talked about doing it, but the continuity sort of weirds people out, especially without a culture of heavily documenting everything"

Lans says, "There are potential downsides to it if someone just trolls and reveals the noble to be a mage or something"

Kinaed nods at Temi.

Eos has returned from AFK.

Rey states, "And most of the time it doesn't make sense for say, a freeman, to start interaction with a noble."

Jasmine states, "Another possible issue for nobles--the economy at the moment doesn't reward them for just having a lot of stuff"

Kinaed states to Lans, "I think that kind of behavior is rare though. Most people are generally willing to play by the rules."

Murrmurs says, "Noble wrap-up question... How possible is it for inactive nobility to be put 'on ice', as it were, until a noble slot opens up that they could app into? Rather than removing the character entirely. I've heard from many folks over the years that they would be happy to rotate characters like their nobles through, but the hard loss makes it very unappealing to be a come-and-go player."

Anonymous claims, "The ingame economy in general is kind of iffy"

Jasmine states, "A bit part of fun around being a noble is tossing money around, and assisting players like merchants and shop owners and right now buying just for the sheer joy of shopping is not easily done"
Temi states to Murrmurs, "That's more how we do it"

Kinaed states to Murrmurs, "I'm not sure I understand what you're saying/asking about bieng 'on ice'"

Ghed nods at Murrmurs.

Kitty states, "Pretty sure that as long as the wrap-up wasn't a death, we decided some time ago that characters can be re-activated, or something."

Kinaed nods at Kitty.

Temi finishes abruptly, "We don't genuinely 'wrap up' people, ie killing them off, until someone else wants the domain - or IC ties need cleaned up"

Sparkles states, "I also think one difficulty is that when people app in really needed roles, they are still bound by the "can you afford it" situation in chargen. It's kind of like asking someone to join your D&D table at level 2 when everyone else is level 10. Particularly given how common flashing high stats/skills is during tense social situations."

Kinaed nods at Temi.

Anonymous states, "The skillset that best helps nobles isn't really coded though. It's more in the player's ability to manipulate and establish social power."

Kinaed states to Sparkles, "I'm not convinced on that one. It's one thing to not 'have the skill' to afford to be an archmage or the Earl Marshall, another to not be a noble that has next to no real game requirements"

Kinaed states, "At least that tax XP"

Kinaed nods at Anonymous.

Temi says, "We could offer a starter package with bonus xp for extra commitments to say.. a related plot/story."

SandMan is idle.

SandMan is no longer idle.

Anonymous claims, "In fact, I think that may be part of the noble retention problem."

SandMan has returned from AFK.

Deedee claims, "Hm"

Temi nods at Anonymous.

Kinaed says, "Also, some people do it naturally like breathing and other people struggle with building the necessary gravitas, then get upset when scenes don't play out the way they think they ought to for 'the Prince of the Realm' or whatever."

Anonymous states, "When you get into nobles, there are a whole heap of behaviors you're expected to avoid - like knowing how to make stuff. It's beneath you. There are less skills to master and goals to reach."

Rey claims, "I like that idea. bonus for nobles for taking on extra commitments."

Kinaed nods at Anonymous.

Deedee states, "Support like that reminds me of the things you used to do, like the hillbeast. I think it could work."

Kinaed states, "I think that's an excellent observation - nothing to strive for can be boring."

Anonymous nods.

Kinaed has gone AFK.

Temi says, "Kin's handling something for just a moment, but we can keep chatting about this."

Raspberries asks, "Were there other topics?"

Jasmine states, "I think with the monthly plots, also, there's more room for nobles to get hooked into stuff going on"

Lans says, "Come to think about it 'claiming' an inactive, wiped noble is not so unappealing"

Temi nods.

Kitty says, "What Anonymous says is true. There was a noble that worked with the merchants, it was very much looked down upon. It's a very social position, and needs to be filled by people that like social. But, that doesn't mean that it can't have ANY skills. Art is still acceptable for nobles, things like that."

Jasmine says, "I've realized a lot of my observations about nobles was from the Before Times where there wasn't much staff stuff to interact with"

Temi states, "It depends on how established they are.  Mostly people seem to want something fresh"

Raspberries states, "If they can be claimed, it'd be good of cnotes were copied over"

Rey claims, "So I think right now, setting goals for nobles to be able to accomplish and a bonus for taking on extra responsibilities, maybe a helpfile that is required reading to what they can do as a noble to get involved and active."

Civetta states, "One worries which nobles would come back."

Raspberries states, "And have more of a stringent policy for cnotes when you play nobles"

Civetta nods at rasp 

Temi states, "It's hard to require cnotes when we don't realize they weren't good enough until after the fact, when they are long gone"

Sparkles says, "I do think maybe a closer peek at the ones who claim relation to like super famous past people. Because ... it can be awkward when folks RP stuff that is easily researchable or readable IC as not true."

Raspberries claims, "If it's outlined with examples, I think it's doable"

Raspberries claims, "Like for example, a cnote is required for any character your noble is familiar with on the remember list"

Raspberries says, "With your background with them"

Raspberries claims, "(familiar characters being the one that are darker gray)"

Kinaed has returned from AFK.

Cat says, "Sounds like tooo much work. no one would want to write that."

Sparkles queries, "What would that help?"

Kitty says, "OH! I did have a topic, >.< Sorry."

Rey says, "I think it would be better to just have people app in as relative to nobles or create a new one, instead of killing off nobles."

Temi states, "I think that's towards the having people come in to replace certain nobles, and making that easier"

They aren't here.

Raspberries nods at Temi.

Kinaed claims, "Okay, I'm back and caught up"

Kinaed states to Kitty, "Adding you to the list"

Temi nods at Kinaed.

Kinaed states, "For time purposes, let's move on to Sparkles' topic"

Kinaed queries to Sparkles, "Please kick it off? We'll keep it to 10 minutes"

Kitty claims to Kinaed, "Thanks."

Kinaed smiles at Kitty.

Sparkles asks, "I just wanted to have a big of a group think about public scenes events. There's been some feedback about wanting more of them, however, my experience tends to be a lot of folks have in Whois and express through other manners that "big scenes" aren't desired. So what's people's thoughts on that? "

Deedee says, "Well"

Kinaed perks up her listening ears.

Deedee says, "For me that's going back into the whole thing where big scenes become slooooow scenes"

Temi claims, "It can certainly vary for me depending on my spoons."

Kitty states, "Big scenes are stressful to me. However, I've been running the games every few weeks (not this week because of the court thing), and those haven't been huge. They've been ok. For me, when we get to 10-15+, I start to twitch. When I get to 4-5, I don't think pose order means as much anymore and should probably be dropped."

Cat says, "I like to do party scenes, but they are also super overwhelming when everybody posts super long text, because I read very slow."

Kinaed asks, "I heard from someone to just drop turn order and whatnot when there's more than 3 people in a room and roll with it. I really like that. Apparently it has a name on other RPIs and is used commonly in the community?"

Temi nods in agreement with Kitty.

Kinaed says, "Well, it's a thing I personally can get on board with"

Anonymous claims, "Big scenes for me either grind to a very slow pace as people wait on others to pose, or they go extremely quickly and it's tough to keep up. I don't mind them, USUALLY."

Cat states, "So I prefer join spots."

Temi says, "Medium-sized scenes are awesome."

Kitty states, "10-15 people trying to use pose order is... literally, it feels like everyone is posing once an hour. it's not engaging."

Kinaed nods at Kitty.

Rey states, "I think big scenes are good as long as join spots are used. And join spots you can jump in and out of. Sort of like in parties where you join a group, talk for a while then move to another group and chat."

Kitty says, "Even, like Kinaed said, getting to 4 or 5, it starts to feel that way. If you even think the short of 4-5 minutes per, that means each person is going once every half hour or so."

Temi says, "I think very big scenes work best when its the job of most people to watch the others and chatter in side cliques, rather than the main focus being to mingle amongst everyone."

Kinaed nods at Temi.

Kitty states, "When I did church service big-scenes with 10+, I'd do... a situation where one person is leading it, and prompting others to respond. but, if they don't, I moved on."

Kinaed says, "Anyway, personally, I have a tolerance for a big scene about once a month, enjoy medium RP around a fortnight, and small scenes 2-4 people any time."

Kinaed nods at Kitty.

Kinaed states, "I often design the big RP scenes (if I am running them) to try to be about 10 minutes of everyone's time so people get the 'feel' and theme of the RP, and whatever task is done, then move on so people can go RP about what just happened."

Civetta claims, "Mingling is important though, some of my favorite scenes on the last character were parties, can get you interacting with people you otherwise wouldn't. Either speechifyin' or sinking into the background lends itself to sinking into the background."

Kinaed nods at Civetta.

Jasmine claims, "Late because I was catching up, but I always enjoy larger scenes more when people use join spots"

Eos has lost link.

Kitty states, "I aimed for no more than an hour, with prompted interaction/answers after every pose or two of my own."

Kinaed nods at Jasmine.

Eos has reconnected.

Jasmine questions, "Like the Court today? VERY nice, not too spammy to be overwhelmed, and people moved between join spots to mingle"

Kinaed nods at Kitty.

Temi nods.

Kitty states, "Court today was good."

Jasmine states, "It was excellent and made it easy to focus on the people I was with while still allowing butterflying"

Murrmurs claims, "Join has dramatically improved the feeling of large scenes, particularly with them being used more frequently these days."

Kinaed questions, "So a take-away is for large scenes if you're hosting is to create obvious join spots?"

Meow has lost link.

Jasmine claims, "And made it VERY easy to follow the king and everyone because the emotes stood out. I always osay requesting join spots in big scenes"

Deedee says, "Kinda sad I missed it"

Kinaed nods at Jasmine.

Temi states, "I think join is more problematic for parties where it ends up being silent to the new people arriving though"

Sparkles states, "The thing is the host can't create them. The only way a host can arguably create them is by making sure there is furniture."

Deedee nods at Temi.

Raspberries claims, "They can create join spots by using furniture"

Kinaed claims to Temi, "We probably need to beef up some of our locales where larger scenes happen with join spots, like the altar, river square, and crossroads."

Eos claims, "Big scenes are bad for new players anyways"

Kinaed nods at Raspberries.

Jasmine states, "Often when ppl come in they can SEE the join spots though"

Kitty claims, "Well, the jmote rule is that, occasionally, there should be a pose that gives a hint at what's going on in the join spot. So... as long as people do that when there's not an outside center focus, I think it's fine."

Kinaed states, "Join spots can be created on the fly, and I *think* can be any object in a room."

Eos says, "New players dont find the connections needed to play, i dont think join spots make that better or worse"

Kitty claims, "The altar has 3 different spots to join - the three levels of pews."

Kinaed nods at Eos.

Ghed nods at Kinaed.

Kinaed nods at Kitty.

Temi says, "Less of a problem when there's the 'main show' like the priest giving mass, or whatnot, to at least follow, though."

Raspberries moves towards the Stealth Overhaul spec.

Eos says, "Like my first scene in this game was a magebane party. that didnt go well"

Raspberries has reached her target.

Murrmurs says, "It's paragraphs of names."

Raspberries tests wandering over to the Stealth Overhaul spec.  [Join]

Raspberries pontificates, "Looks like it does work with any object!"

Kinaed nods at Raspberries.

Raspberries sniffs book.  [Jmote]

Murrmurs states, "Descriptions*, re: eos."

Kinaed says, "I've written down an action item to consider beefing up Church Square, Crossroads, River Square, and Inns with join spots. Or any other place players submit."

Jasmine claims, "I had a possible suggestion for joinspots, also--we could add a line that pops up on the autowarning when x amount of people are present"

Jasmine states, "Autowarning can already be turned off at will and it might be helpful"

Deedee says, "I've noticed"

Kinaed queries, "What kind of line?"

Jasmine says, "Something small like 'There are many people here, consider a join spot' if there's more than 4-5 people in a room, since that's usually when join spots shine"

Deedee questions, "Many people join seating places without codedly sitting at them. why is that?"

Kinaed nods at Jasmine.

Deedee claims, "Their actions say they're sitting, but they're codedly standing"

Jasmine claims, "Some people don't like the coded disadvantage of sitting, which is fine if they RP standing"

Anonymous states, "I know that some of them do it so that they aren't codedly sitting and don't have to waste a combat round standing up if things blow up."

Sparkles claims, "People don't like to sit because of the combat risk."

Kinaed states to Deedee, "More to type when it's already visible to the room that you're sitting, I think"

Eos says, "I just forget to sit"

Deedee says, "I see. that's a bit twinkish in that case"

Jasmine states, "Yeah or people can be lazy sometimes"

Ghed queries to Sparkles, "Is that an actual worry or just yours?"

Kinaed says, "For me, I just don't want to emote to the room that I sat twice when everyone knows it"

Murrmurs claims, "When I join a seating spot I don't check to see if I should add sit spam to the scene, or generally  care."

Ghed states, "I forget to sit bc I'm dumb, not bc of combat code"

Kinaed nods at Murrmurs.

Sparkles claims, "I mean it's not mine, I sit down all the time. I've had people mention it to me before though, yes."

Deedee says, "Remember that sitting automatically joins you to the spot"

Ghed nods at Sparkles.

Kinaed nods at Deedee.

Murrmurs says, "Jmotes do not automatically make you sit, on the other hand."

Deedee nods.

Kinaed claims, "Okay, I've made a few notes. Like the autowarning idea to suggest join as well. Will look into it."

Kinaed claims, "To value time and give a topic time it deserves, let's move on to Kitty though :)"

Kinaed muses to Kitty, "Would you introduce us to your topic please?"

Kitty wonders, "Alright, 2GLs. With the amount of players that we currently have, I see more and more GL spots empty. And, I wonder from those currently in GL spots, do you think 2nd GL should still be required, or should it be optional until guild population rises more?"

Deedee states, "I want 2GLs."

Kitty says, "Just throwing someone in there because they are in the guild doesn't... usually work out."

Eos claims, "I want 2GLs."

Kinaed states, "I want 2nd GLs for a heap of reasons."

Eos states, "Oh oops"

Eos claims, "Yes "

Kitty nods.

Kitty claims, "I wasn't suggesting not having them, just not making them required."

Eos states, "I've heard over and over how much more difficult it is without a second and also availability is much higher"

Civetta says, "Not having a 2gl for an extended period of time was hella miserable"

Sparkles says, "I do agree that the pressure to 'just put someone in the role' can lead to problematic situations, however, "

Deedee claims, "I think current status quo is good."

Eos muses, "I mean they're not necessarily required right now, are they? Like, people don't get codedly punished for it, right?"

Rey says, "I think it depends. If there is someone in the guild who wants to be 2 GL not requiring it means the GL can say no indefinitely."

Temi says, "I think some of the reasons for having them aren't necessarily always something the 1st GL acknowledges, so it's good to not make it be up to their decision."

Anonymous says, "I am not in a GL position, but my opinion is that 2nd GLs are nice, but I am generally unwilling to bend IC reasonability to put someone in there just to have someone."

Kitty states, "They are pretty much required. If there is no 2gl, the guild will get a weekly warning that if no one is placed in there, the role will be opened for apps."

Deedee says, "Well, it automatically opens it to app-in to guild members, then later to the base"

Salem is idle.

Jasmine says, "I think the game DOES benefit from people not just taking the position to take the position"

Temi nods.

Eos claims, "Ah. Well, if someone is a bad guild leader then they can be oocly or icly ousted, so there is no reason to prevent people from rising to 2nd GL."

Jasmine says, "So I think the open spots and good, so long as they are open for possible apps, and that way characters might grow more to be suitable for the position"

Deedee claims, "Sometimes I'd rather the position not be opened to member characters when it doesn't make sense"

Anonymous says, "Ousting tends to be rare for a lot of reasons"

Ghed states to Eos, "It is also true that many bad GLs are not ousted because 'meh'"

Kitty claims to Ghed, "Yes."

Eos says, "That's on the players :)"

Ghed states, "The potential cost of causing waves is higher than the actual cost of enduring a current bad GL, for many"

Ghed nods at Eos.

Ghed claims to Eos, "Puny players"

Deedee nods.

Anonymous says, "Sometimes I wonder if ousting should include removing the player from the guild itself, not just from the leadership position."

Rey claims, "Or fear of backlash people don't oust."

Ghed nods at Rey.

Temi claims, "You don't necessarily have to put somewhere there if there are no good options.  But then we do need to open the application."

Eos says, "We have ooc ousting now"

Raspberries claims, "I've seen it happen that an acolyte is suddenly the new GI. I think that's a bit jarring."

Ghed states to Raspberries, "It never ceases to make me cringe a little"

Eos states, "Write a board to us if you think a GL isn't doing their job"

Ghed declares, "But! sometimes we gotta do it for the good of the gmae"

Raspberries claims, "For the greater good."

Eos trails off, "Guilds are super important to the game so anything that makes them work better, be more available... is good "

Kitty claims, "I think 2nd GLs are important, but I think just like GLs, they should be people that should/need to be there. And if there simply isn't anyone currently ICly qualified, I think it should be considered 'not required', rather than the warning on the guildleaders list. It makes existing GLs look as if they just aren't trying to find anyone, and I don't think that's necessarily the case."

Deedee says, "Well"

Ghed says, "We should work on making 2nd gls more attractive, as compared to 1st gls"

Anonymous claims, "I generally agree with Kitty."

Eos states, "Oocly 2gls are too important to not require them"

Deedee claims, "I am getting spammed about 2GLs even though it's already open to app into"

Anonymous trails off, "Not in the least because I had no chanceller for... 5 ooc months... *shifts guiltily*"

Temi claims, "If it's up on the application board, we don't look down on you not filling it."

Deedee says, "That's a bit annoying"

Jasmine claims, "I think that so long as people know that they are not OBLIGATED to take the position the spam is annoying , but not the end of the world"

Temi states, "There's just no code for 'it's up for applications' since that's just a forum post"

Sparkles questions, "Do new players know to check the Application board? Like is that something really obvious from chargen?"

Deedee asks, "Can we make a code to toggle it off on request?"

SandMan says, "I don't see it as a slight to the 1st GL, there could just not be any within said guild that is interested in that position at present, or even available members at all that are active."

Deedee queries, "I've not been in chargen for a while, but I think it might be mentioned in a room desc?"

Sparkles claims, "Like I know people were super opposed the last time to a "wanted concepts" board but ... I do wonder if we let people know in more ways about things if more people might be interested. Like the new website or such."

Deedee states, "If not, it should be yeah"

Kitty claims, "Basically to boil it down, I think having no 2nd GL might be less jarring/damaging than having an absolutely awful one put in there just because it's expected."

Eos says, "Awful guildleaders can be icly and oocly ousted"

Kitty states, "I understand that, but it's not what I'm addressing."

Deedee says, "I will admit, there's sometimes characters that I'd never promote for IC reasons, and it's be kind of scary if they can just request to be put in the 2nd GL role"

SandMan states, "Step up roles could be useful, something not a GL but with some sort of added responsibilities to let them get their feet wet, and the GL can observe how they do"

Anonymous queries to Deedee, "I mean... what's stopping you from immediately demoting them?"

Deedee states, "I'm not certain on the policy for that"

Deedee claims, "It'd basically be going against the staff who just placed them in the role"

Jasmine states, "The request board is visible to staff, so you should be able to see it and reach out to staff privately"

Civetta states, "I've had the same problem, it seems a bit gauche"

Jasmine says, "To tell them Icly you'd not want that person as your 2GL"

Kinaed states, "There is no policy against immediately demoting, but I would question a GL that demotes based solely on not wanting a 2nd GL."

Kitty says, "... anyway, it was a thought. If it's a resounding, 'You're ridiculous, Kitty,' then that's fine. It's just something I've been thinking about for a long while as I watch the guildleader list."

Kinaed states, "If it was because the player did something ICly that made them unsuitable and staff didn't know it, I'd be fine, but if it's "I odn't want a 2nd GL or can't stomach an apprentice being promoted", that wouldn't fly."

Kinaed nods at Kitty.

Kinaed says, "I don't think it's a ridiculous thought :) "

Kinaed claims, "I just see 2nd GLs as being hugely valuable for a number of reasons."

Kinaed claims, "Well, we're five minutes over time. :) Thank you everyone for your patience and engagement with our topics today."

Eos states, "Tough topic but as is many of the guilds aren't quickly or often enough fulfilling their duties and that has been just part of the general activity issue. If we don't require 2nd GLs, that's not gonna get easier. It sucks if you can't pick someone who makes sense icly - but I'd rather that than have a guild stay at low activity."
Raspberries smiles.

Kitty claims, "Like I said, I didn't say remove them. I think they're valuable, too. Just... we have a list underneath the guildleaders list of 4 that are open. Which means... they're open for a reason."

Eos says, "Oops"

Rey states, "I suggest saying a 3rd party promoted them if you feel your GL IC wouldn't."

Kinaed claims, "Hmm. Let's discuss more next week? Please feel free to bring it back for further discussion."

Kinaed nods at Rey.

Kinaed says, "Blame it on the Synod, Amir, the cat."

Kitty says, "... mage."

Kinaed pontificates, "Okay, thanks again everyone!"

Kinaed nods at Kitty.

Deedee waves.

Kinaed declaims, "Have a great week!"

Lans waves.

Kinaed trails off, "Retransing in 3..."

Kinaed trails off, "2..."

SandMan waves.

Kinaed trails off, "1..."

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