New Player Experience

[Obtainedzero]

I've had quite a hard time getting into the game and have some suggestions and general issues with it I would like to leave here.

Firstly, consistency between this site and the actual game aren't very good, example hillfolk are called this on this website in every instance but on the actual game all their helpfiles are listed under hillman without working for hillfolk which made it very hard to use. Another example is if you use the travel command and try to stop or move out of it, it tells you "You have to stop moving.." of course you then think you should type stop to stop moving but instead you have to type halt. Never does the game rever to stopping as halting, would recommend consistency here two.
Second, I think all races should be pickable in the character creation, simply put a warning at the top for the races that often experience trouble. Having them not be an option at all not only makes it alot harder to make those characters but also can lead to incorrect skills or fashion that doesnt fit at all.
Third Make helpfiles just give you the info you need to play the game. I think having the helpfile be a paragraph of text that doesn't truly give you what you need to play sucks very badly and makes them really unfun to use. I remember specifically trying to learn what defense should be used against what, and instead of actually telling me what weapons they are good against it hit me with a paragraph about the lore behind why the defense works without actually saying what weapons its good against other then a vague idea for a weapon, such as dodge being good against weapons that require precision, does this mean a dagger and bow, probably does it mean a sword, maybe. Problem is there is no way to know for a new player and that SHOULD in my opinion be info all players get to see.

Now some small personal gripes and problems that make it really hard to get back into it.
I really liked the rp but felt heavily pushed down, and often threatened, this made me want to become stronger and train, so over the last 3 days trying to get my axe skill higher and after help from a experienced player, helpfiles and staff I was unable to rank up a single skill level. This was so unfun that I haven't really felt the want to rp or play the game at all, in general the entire game requires to constantly play with others to get anything which sucks for me a european.
I would like to see, a way for players to be able to catch up to already existing characters and maybe simplifying the system a bit. The game feels like it lacks new players badly.

Lastly, I wanted to play a acolyte and a reever, now after learning the only reever is barely active i focused on being a priest with ambition of inquisitor, over the last week or so, I never got introduced into the guild or group, which really sucked and made me feel like i shouldn't even try.

I think this game is a little to focus on the real long term of the game making it really hard to get into the game. It feels currently like I am joining a dnd campaign with all the characters being level 20 except mine which is level 1. That feeling is very rough especially in a world that is SO hateful towards anything that isn't orthodox. I'll try the game for a bit longer but man I really hope you guys make growing or playing law enforcement more fun.

[Karrin]

Good day Morn,

My apologies that I missed your tell last night (I saw it this morning), and I am glad that you have found the forums.

I will be addressing your post piece by piece, so please be patient with me:

Firstly, consistency between this site and the actual game aren't very good, example hillfolk are called this on this website in every instance but on the actual game all their helpfiles are listed under hillman without working for hillfolk which made it very hard to use. Another example is if you use the travel command and try to stop or move out of it, it tells you "You have to stop moving.." of course you then think you should type stop to stop moving but instead you have to type halt. Never does the game rever to stopping as halting, would recommend consistency here two.

If you are looking at the wiki and main website, it is admittedly long-since overdue for either getting rid of and replacing (though I am hesitant to do that because there is good information), or a full overhaul. I have only been implementor for a few months, and I have focused on other aspects of the game that had higher priority to update.

You will be glad to know, however, that the in game helpfiles (for the most part) are updated and ready to go. There might be a few inconsistencies here or there.

However, both of the problems you mention above - 'hillfolk' and 'hillman' and 'hillmen' were addressed by me in game with you via tells, and you were able to figure it out relatively quickly. You even suggested that it was some sort of sexist reason that it was "changed" to hillman or hillmen, and I let you know that it was not. As for traveling - we can be sure HALT is added to the helpfile.

Second, I think all races should be pickable in the character creation, simply put a warning at the top for the races that often experience trouble. Having them not be an option at all not only makes it alot harder to make those characters but also can lead to incorrect skills or fashion that doesnt fit at all.

This will be a no. These characters aren't intended to be sped through in creation. To be honest, no characters are. I have actually considered making these races only allowed to be chosen by someone who has at least one established character because they are, indeed, more difficult to play. NPCs react to them, players react to them, and the agreement and understanding that these races are more difficult and have a firm glass ceiling that other characters do not has to be acknowledged before playing them. As you well know, since we went through it together twice.

Third Make helpfiles just give you the info you need to play the game. I think having the helpfile be a paragraph of text that doesn't truly give you what you need to play sucks very badly and makes them really unfun to use. I remember specifically trying to learn what defense should be used against what, and instead of actually telling me what weapons they are good against it hit me with a paragraph about the lore behind why the defense works without actually saying what weapons its good against other then a vague idea for a weapon, such as dodge being good against weapons that require precision, does this mean a dagger and bow, probably does it mean a sword, maybe. Problem is there is no way to know for a new player and that SHOULD in my opinion be info all players get to see.

This is not a hack and slash. The helpfiles are OOC guidance, but there are ways in game to learn what weapon best works with what defense, those sorts of things. We also want to encourage experimentation, and roleplay (especially for newer characters). My guess is that you ran into quite a lot of people on grid who have the knowledge you want, but if you don't ICly ask them, then you won't learn what those things are.

This game does admittedly have a large learning curve. Most people are used to hack and slash, put on armor and go adventuring and exploring. This game is a slower pace. It's about deeper roleplay. Think MUSH but with some mechanics, and a crafting system that is unparalleled in any game I've ever seen before.

I really liked the rp but felt heavily pushed down, and often threatened, this made me want to become stronger and train, so over the last 3 days trying to get my axe skill higher and after help from a experienced player, helpfiles and staff I was unable to rank up a single skill level. This was so unfun that I haven't really felt the want to rp or play the game at all, in general the entire game requires to constantly play with others to get anything which sucks for me a european.

I am going to try to address this in a way that doesn't reveal all too much, but I think in some ways, it will be unavoidable.

1) Most importantly - yes, the game requires that you play with others. It is an RPI. This game is intended for people to write stories together. If you want a game you can play independently without ever talking to or interacting with other players, then this probably isn't the game for you. (Which is fine! TI isn't for everyone.) The game is simply not designed in this manner.

2) Your skills - you asked about this over OOC, and I suggested you go back to chargen to the room that has the information about skills and read about it there. It references several helpfiles in those rooms. What it sounds like is that you only looked at a couple of them. Did you purchase your skills to 36? One reason you might not be gaining any rank on them even while using them is because you need to select certain skills to put in learn slots. HELP LEARN. Please do revisit chargen and thoroughly read each room - including the helpfiles referenced. The other reason would be a lack of experience - called RPXP in score. Even if you max your pool, if you run out of RPXP needed to advance to the next rank, your pool will drain and you will not gain rank. RPXP is gained by roleplaying with people.

3) You said the RP felt heavily pushed down and you felt threatened. After accepting through tells from me that you are playing a race that will be ICly oppressed and receive prejudice. So, yes. But, I think this wasn't the only reason you felt this way - as far as I understand, in some ways on your very first days, you came in quite aggressive yourself. People will match energy. To be frank and honest: don't dish it if you can't take it?

I would like to see, a way for players to be able to catch up to already existing characters and maybe simplifying the system a bit. The game feels like it lacks new players badly.

Since there is a firm ceiling to existing characters, new players actually can catch up relatively quickly. Mainly because there is a limit to what characters can become 'experts' in, and so each one has to come in with a solid plan. (HELP LEARN will help with this one, as well.)

We do actually have a steady flow of new players. But, yes, not all of them stay. TI is a niche MUD that not everyone will relate to or enjoy - and July is admittedly already a slower time of the year because players are busy with family and vacations and other things, so two hits there for our general pop at the moment.

There are some compromises I'm not truly interested in making, though. While it is a niche MUD, it does have its niche players that enjoy it. And to be fair, it's never intended to be a MUD that has hundreds of people around at a time. And it won't ever appeal to a huge number of people, I feel, as it is one that has a very large learning curve (but worth it for those who enjoy it and get into this sort of game), and the theme is so restricting.

Lastly, I wanted to play a acolyte and a reever, now after learning the only reever is barely active i focused on being a priest with ambition of inquisitor, over the last week or so, I never got introduced into the guild or group, which really sucked and made me feel like i shouldn't even try.

Reeves have always had a hard time holding players, as well as the Order. And, both of those GLs happen to be a bit taxed for time, at the moment. That whole summer issue I mentioned above.

However, I will ask - did you attempt to reach out ICly to them via courier or other means? Did you send them an OOC note on their personal board? GLs do have a responsibility and requirement to meet certain guidelines in activity and in turn around time when people reach out to them, enforceable by assistance with staff, if need be. Just include 'staff' in the 'to' section of the OOC note when you reach out. If they have notified us that they are out of the game for a while (vacation, the like), then we help out where we can within reason - people are allowed to handle family obligations and go on vacas. Everyone has a life, and we respect that as best we can. And move forward where necessary.

However, if you have not reached out, then we don't have anything we can go on or speak to the GLs about - we need your support in that way so we can make sure that they are following their requirements.

I think this game is a little to focus on the real long term of the game making it really hard to get into the game. It feels currently like I am joining a dnd campaign with all the characters being level 20 except mine which is level 1. That feeling is very rough especially in a world that is SO hateful towards anything that isn't orthodox. I'll try the game for a bit longer but man I really hope you guys make growing or playing law enforcement more fun.

There aren't levels in this game. Sure, ranks for your skills, but even those max out at 75, and you can only choose 3-5 to get that level (depending on your wisdom).

But yes, the world is hateful toward anything that isn't orthodox. This is a game called THE INQUISITION. And it very much leans toward what you would know of... the inquisition. It's medieval based, and the theme is very strict and very restrictive - HELP THEME if you have not read it yet. There is one accepted religion. One accepted way to do things, one accepted way to believe in public. Dav is worshiped - he is the ONLY one worshipped, magic and mages are evil and must be saved/purged/cleansed. Heretics must be converted, lest they be subjected to eternal damnation. The only way to make it to the Springs is through Dav.

If you want to play something or someone that is against the grain, unlike some MUDs where you can do this openly and people will let you walk around and do and say what you will, some subterfuge is required here. Secrecy, and learning just who you can reveal those secrets to. Appealing to the masses outwardly, while inwardly having your own goals, ideals, and opinions. Learn who it is safe to be open to those things about, and who will turn you in as a heretic or hypocrite.

And believe you me, there are FAR more heretics and agnostic than people who actually believe in the church's teachings in the game. But, it will take time, trust, and in-depth roleplay to find those people.

Our helpfiles are extensive. Admittedly, this game takes a lot more reading, patience, and simply honestly TRYING things to get yourself in there - it's not a game where you can drop in and immediately just GO, it takes time to get used to things and learn the systems.

Some people stick around - some of our most active players right now actually arrived only about 6 or 7 months ago, and this game has been around since - goodness, have we hit our 25 year anniversary? It's been a while.

Some people do not. Some people should not, if it is not the game for them. Like any other game, there are people that will like it and people that will hate it.

Now, that said. I would like to work on making the game a bit more newbie friendly. I won't be completely overhauling the entire game to do that, but we have been discussing ways to ease people in a little better. I already took a swim through chargen recently and found it to be (yes) overwhelming, but also (yes) necessary so someone can come into the game with all of the information they need. I can take another swim through.

The reading portion of it, unfortunately, can't go away. We can make things reasonable chunks, but things need to stay put as far as helpfiles, etc. They are extensive. Please feel free to spend time reading - I feel you will find it valuable. Your 75 RP hours as a new player are just that - RP hours. If you are spending time reading helpfiles, etc, and not in RP, those hours don't go down at all. Revisit chargen and read all of those files that come up in cyan in the descriptions. You can return by typing CHARGEN as long as you are still cyan.

The intention of this game is not to be stronger than everyone, or be better than anyone. The intention of this game is to write stories together. To weave fictional tales together. Yeah, sometimes people die and those stories end abruptly, sometimes even before their time. Death here is intentional, and murder and pyring and execution can end a character's life in frustrating ways. But, the goal here isn't really 'winning' or 'gaining levels' as it might be in other games. It's continuing the story, however that story might be.

I wish you the best of luck.

[Obtainedzero]

Thank you for the very in depth response. I would like to clarify some of my problems so hopefully my gripes are slightly clearly.

Firstly, I think that a great idea, I would highly recommend to edit some of the messages to include or use the keywords in the text. The best example i think is that if you try to move during travel it says "stop" instead of halting or something similar. That way a player can learn the right keywords much more naturally, as a keyword for halt wouldnt help cause you would have to know halt is the keyword. (which i never thought of.) Also it might be an idea to put in the blue text at the bottom of the reaction to your command (such as below sheathe it has the word draw) another good way to learn in a more natural manner.

Second fair, It would be nice if you changed the race it would change the style of the clothing. That would make it much easier fitting in with the lore.

Thirdly, I think a mechanic like the defense, could easily be clearly by just stating the weapons it is good against. I think it (and alot of the helpfiles) feel less like they are written to be succinct and teach you the game and alot more fluff then I feel they should have. But its fair to disagree. Given how many there are it is much better in IMO to keep them succinct.

I don't mind also having rp, but i would like to be able to grow my skills between rps so they i feel my character is growing, which i tried and felt at.
I won't lie i did not read all help files, I have a hard time imagining any new player would and personally i think the best way to make the game more friendly to new players is by making it easier for players to understand. And the best way to do this is making help files more like teaching tools (as in their written with the intent of teaching you how it works)

I cannot say for other periods, all i know is right now most rps i have I talk with the lord of - or person of the council, and having every rp have that is quite alot.

As for the last thing, I felt less like I was having aggressive reaction and alot more that we both knew who would win in a fight ooc and they suggested doing a fight which felt kind bad. Just wanna note it was a single message cause it wasn't that big of a deal.

Thank you for considering the game, as stated i will try it some more but I don't think I will rely on the helpfiles for when i did I have found them quite unhelpful, but I think for the success of the game with new players they can be greatly improved in their contents, and consistency between words. One thing that is easy to fix and quickly to do, is use the keyword in text properly (again the text for stopping instead using the word halting)

[Karrin]

Firstly, I think that a great idea, I would highly recommend to edit some of the messages to include or use the keywords in the text. The best example i think is that if you try to move during travel it says "stop" instead of halting or something similar. That way a player can learn the right keywords much more naturally, as a keyword for halt wouldnt help cause you would have to know halt is the keyword. (which i never thought of.) Also it might be an idea to put in the blue text at the bottom of the reaction to your command (such as below sheathe it has the word draw) another good way to learn in a more natural manner.

We, as staff, will discuss this and what it would take to code. We have a lot of commands, so this is not a small task - but we will see what we can do to have the messaging returned when wrong commands are typed be more helpful.

Do please check out HELP NEWBIE COMMANDS - it's a good (though a little long) summary of some of the most important commands in the game.

Second fair, It would be nice if you changed the race it would change the style of the clothing. That would make it much easier fitting in with the lore.

It does for every race that is selectable in the creation part of chargen before you are dropped into the game - the clothes that you come into game with are related to whichever race you chose there. Clothes just are not automatically changed if race is manually changed by staff (which you chose both times by requesting races not selectable in chargen without staff assistance). The starting clothes are just that, usually - it's just enough to start. Most people buy clothes on grid very soon after entering, or they restring their existing clothing (HELP RESTRING) to whatever they'd like it to be, or to have color.

Thirdly, I think a mechanic like the defense, could easily be clearly by just stating the weapons it is good against. I think it (and alot of the helpfiles) feel less like they are written to be succinct and teach you the game and alot more fluff then I feel they should have. But its fair to disagree. Given how many there are it is much better in IMO to keep them succinct.

Sorry, hard no. There are IC means of learning in game which defenses work best against which weapons. I stated one to you in my previous response, and there are also other IC means of learning it - take a look around, see what you can find and learn. Talk to people ICly, and see what you can find and learn. As apparently you have already been told, this was a design decision that a previous implementor made. I agree with it, and uphold it.

I don't mind also having rp, but i would like to be able to grow my skills between rps so they i feel my character is growing, which i tried and felt at.

You spent about every bit of your RPXP in chargen purchasing skills and other things - which is acceptable, but it means that before you can get your character growing outside of RP, you will need to get more xp. Which will require RPing with people. Once you have xp built up again, you will be able to grow your skills between RP scenes. This is actually how the game is designed. RP to get some rpxp, then use it. Back and forth. HELP RANK tells you how much RPXP you need in order to gain for each rank level, and HELP POOL gives you information on your pool and how it drains into the skills.

I won't lie i did not read all help files, I have a hard time imagining any new player would and personally i think the best way to make the game more friendly to new players is by making it easier for players to understand. And the best way to do this is making help files more like teaching tools (as in their written with the intent of teaching you how it works)

You would be surprised - many new players spend a good amount of time in chargen reading everything referenced - or a good majority of it. But, this is not a debate worth having - each person decides what is and is not worth their time as an individual. There is the visnet channel that can also be used to ask mechanics questions - probably the best place to ask as the most people have the view to answer. Please do not be offended if their answer points you to a helpfile, though.

As for the last thing, I felt less like I was having aggressive reaction and alot more that we both knew who would win in a fight ooc and they suggested doing a fight which felt kind bad. Just wanna note it was a single message cause it wasn't that big of a deal.

I cannot say what did or did not happen in any of the scenes you have had. Nor should we discuss it OOCly - it is against policy to discuss ongoing, current roleplay in an OOC manner. If you feel that someone broke OOC game policy, please feel free to write a board note on the request board, addressed to staff (HELP BOARD, HELP NOTE), and we will look into it.

As far as IC goes, I said what I said, and stand behind it. Don't dish it if you can't take it. You have control over yourself and your character, and they have control of theirs. What you might feel is an overreaction on their part might be par for the course for them. Unless it breaks OOC policy, it's not my business or right to interfere or to judge. I make it a point to let people play their characters however they want to play them as long as they uphold OOC policy. And they will face whatever IC consequences those actions might bring them. I won't be telling anyone else how they should be playing or how they should be reacting ICly to anything going on ICly. That isn't my place or my right. I live in the OOC world of the game.

What I will say is this - If your character ICly is acting some kind of way (weird, aggressive, against-the-grain, nonconformist, etc), don't be surprised when people react some kind of way in response. Being a cyan gives you some protections here - you'll get warned if you're being put in any real danger with your actions, but actions still have consequences. Those consequences can be good - that people will find you intriguing and want to RP with you. Those consequences can also be bad - that people will find the RP uncomfortable or unenjoyable and will avoid. Either is a perfectly valid reaction depending on the situations people are put into, and people will match the energy being given in the room.

I wish you the best.

[Obtainedzero]

"We, as staff, will discuss this and what it would take to code. We have a lot of commands, so this is not a small task - but we will see what we can do to have the messaging returned when wrong commands are typed be more helpful.

Do please check out HELP NEWBIE COMMANDS - it's a good (though a little long) summary of some of the most important commands in the game"

I really hope so, being able to learn commands naturally through playing would i think increase the enjoyment of learning the system a lot, because it won't feel like you are being taught and more like you are able to discover it yourself.

"I cannot say what did or did not happen in any of the scenes you have had. Nor should we discuss it OOCly - it is against policy to discuss ongoing, current roleplay in an OOC manner. If you feel that someone broke OOC game policy, please feel free to write a board note on the request board, addressed to staff (HELP BOARD, HELP NOTE), and we will look into it.

As far as IC goes, I said what I said, and stand behind it. Don't dish it if you can't take it. You have control over yourself and your character, and they have control of theirs. What you might feel is an overreaction on their part might be par for the course for them. Unless it breaks OOC policy, it's not my business or right to interfere or to judge. I make it a point to let people play their characters however they want to play them as long as they uphold OOC policy. And they will face whatever IC consequences those actions might bring them. I won't be telling anyone else how they should be playing or how they should be reacting ICly to anything going on ICly. That isn't my place or my right. I live in the OOC world of the game."

I will post a ooc notion about the experience i felt was unfair. but again I think the problem isn't consequences it is OOC knowing i am cyan and thus able to challenge one WITHOUT fear of consequences which is more my point. I think saying that with the notion that everyone knows I am a new player and thus a threat of stats is not good for new players as it isn't consequences it is people holding stats over you because you are a new character despite them literally not knowing anything. Which is more my problem, like they shouldn't know challenging they won't have consequences in a fight, which kinda ruins thinks to me.


"Sorry, hard no. There are IC means of learning in game which defenses work best against which weapons. I stated one to you in my previous response, and there are also other IC means of learning it - take a look around, see what you can find and learn. Talk to people ICly, and see what you can find and learn. As apparently you have already been told, this was a design decision that a previous implementor made. I agree with it, and uphold it."

I will say this again, It is silly that my lack of OOC info should carry over to my warrior character, it would mean that a warrior who has 36 into a stat doesn't know IC how it works because I don't know OOC. I think that is silly and shouldn't be the case, it would be like making a crafter of some kind and needing to learn a IC craft to use it. It doesn't even make sense IC, as if I have put a 36 (which you are allowed to do) in character creation imply you know how to use it, It shouldn't be my OOC lack of knowledge that forces me to play my character like a newb at fighting. Help files should help you learn what skills do, especially since these skills arent locked behind a guild.

""You would be surprised - many new players spend a good amount of time in chargen reading everything referenced - or a good majority of it. But, this is not a debate worth having - each person decides what is and is not worth their time as an individual. There is the visnet channel that can also be used to ask mechanics questions - probably the best place to ask as the most people have the view to answer. Please do not be offended if their answer points you to a helpfile, though."

Maybe a different kind of player

"You spent about every bit of your RPXP in chargen purchasing skills and other things - which is acceptable, but it means that before you can get your character growing outside of RP, you will need to get more xp. Which will require RPing with people. Once you have xp built up again, you will be able to grow your skills between RP scenes. This is actually how the game is designed. RP to get some rpxp, then use it. Back and forth. HELP RANK tells you how much RPXP you need in order to gain for each rank level, and HELP POOL gives you information on your pool and how it drains into the skills."

I purchased skills cause I didn't know how to level skills, there is probably a help file but in the tutorial it only spoke of purchasing skills (or at least thats what I remembered) so thats just a lack of information.

Again thank you for the response

[Karrin]

If you feel that someone has broken an OOC policy, please report it as was instructed in my last response, and we will look into it.

If your character was in actual mortal danger (i.e. murder, arrest of some kind, etc), then the established players would be required to send you a cyan warning. And THAT is something I can watch OOCly - if they kill your character or arrest your character as a cyan without warning you that the consequences of your actions could lead to that, then I have a means to step in. HELP WARN

If you feel that someone has been ICly unfair, please see about handling that ICly - or adjusting your approach in things. If your character is dishing out the shit in spades, people do not have to refrain from responding in kind just because you are new. To put this in more plain and blunt terms: being new to the game and a cyan does not give your character the freedom to go around mistreating, yelling at, or calling out and being rude to other characters and require them to just lay there and roll over and take the abuse. They are allowed to respond however they feel is appropriate. Being new to the game also does not require established people to be "nice" ICly - they do not have to change their character's personalities just because a cyan has walked into the room. If they are OOCly rude/discourteous - totally not ok. If it is IC, then it is IC.

Since you keep bringing this up: Challenging your character to a spar or fight because they are offended by your character's behavior is not an OOC policy matter. To me it feels like realistic consequences to actions when you're coming in and tossing your shit around expecting everyone else to catch it or be covered in poo. It's honestly not even a big deal, like you are making it out to be. Worst that happens is you get a boo boo, and learn about how healing works in game. Best that happens is you learn how healing and combat work in game, and you get some good RP and character growth out of it. If you're going to have your character put it out there, be sure your character has the balls to back it up - don't come complaining to me OOCly about people mistreating you "because I'm new", when they would have treated your characters just fine if yours hadn't come at them ICly with verbal fists swinging at air hoping to catch a random cheek.

I assure you that you have been heard. My responses remain the same. Continuing to go in circles about the very same things and push back because you did not get the response you wanted is not going to make me change my mind.

Have a blessed day.