Log of OOC Meeting: 2021-02-27

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Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:20 pm

Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:44 pm

Kinaed claims, "A reminder of the OOC Chat Pact: Regardless of what we discuss, we understand and truly believe that everyone on TI does the best they
can, given what they know at the time, their skills and abilities, the resources available, and the situation at hand. We will be respectful of this 
and each other at all times."

Kinaed says, "Today's Agenda is:

   - Staff Updates
   - Player Heartbeat
   - Player Topics

Is there anything anyone would like to add to the agenda to make certain we discuss it today? If you register a topic, please pre-write it so you're
ready to present it when called upon."

BoltIsPogchamp says, "I didnt get a stag :("

Kinaed comforts BoltIsPogchamp.

Eos gives a plush, white stag with a magnificent rack of wood antlers to BoltIsPogchamp.

BoltIsPogchamp states, "Thank you"

BoltIsPogchamp holds a plush, white stag with a magnificent rack of wood antlers in her hand.

Kinaed queries, "No topics today? :)"

Errisar says, "I have a topic, and have already prewritten my word-mountain."

Anonymous claims, "Word-mountain makes me nervous"

Kinaed states to Errisar, "Thank you. I'll call on you when we get there :)"

Kinaed asks, "Anyone else want to register anything?"

Kinaed says, "Okay, I'll assume no for now - but if that changes, please send me a tell or something, and I'll slot you in."

Baklava nods.

Lans peers left and right grimly.

Kinaed trails off, "Kicking off staff updates - I don't remember what I did last week. However, rumor 40 made me do a quick review to update HELP
SEXUAL HARASSMENT. I checked with the player, and they said the rumor is blown out of proportion and they didn't view what happened as harassment. So 
yay! BUT MEANWHILE... please note that sexual harassment is against policy, whether it be IC or OOC :)"

Ionica says, "It's been a hell of a rumor mill lately."

Kinaed says, "I do enjoy a good rumor :)"

Ghed says, "It's often a good indicator of activity and conflict"

Kinaed states, "(I haven't been watching the rumor mill, but I hope it's fun)"

Kinaed says, "Rumor 40 was pointed out to me :)"

Kinaed claims, "Okay, I'm sure I did more, but that's all I can remember. I'm currently still sitting on the event schedule, and I presided over the
Ritual Cleansing of the backlog."

Kinaed claims, "That's it for me. Next up is.."

Kinaed rolled 1d4 for a pool of: 2. [La361]

Kinaed wonders to Ghed, "You're next :) If you're not AFK?"

Kinaed has transferred Sparkles.  [OOC]

Kinaed has transferred Violet.  [OOC]

Eos gives a plush, white stag with a magnificent rack of wood antlers to Sparkles.

Eos gives a plush, white stag with a magnificent rack of wood antlers to Violet.

Violet squeals! "Cute!"

Violet holds a plush, white stag with a magnificent rack of wood antlers in her hand.

Kinaed says, "Oh, I did forget something. Will wait til Ghed goes."

Kinaed claims, "Nope, I think he's AFK. Will instead make the announcement."

Baklava holds a plush, white stag with a magnificent rack of wood antlers in his hand.

Baklava idly tosses his stag toy from hand to hand, careful to avoid catching it with the antlers poking into his hand.

Baklava stops using a plush, white stag with a magnificent rack of wood antlers.

Kinaed says, "So, due to having more staff with both time and enthusiasm, we're redoing demons this week (Viridis is on it) and will be re-opening
demon summoning in approximately two weeks, give or take."

Kinaed has transferred Murrmurs.  [OOC]

Anonymous is scared.

Ionica says, "Sweeet."

Eos gives a plush, white stag with a magnificent rack of wood antlers to Murrmurs.

Kinaed says, "Long term, we will automate lesser demons, but greater, court, and the pinnacle of demon summoning will be staff-run."

Kinaed claims, "Short term, we're just cleaning the system up a bit and maybe adding a few RP elements."

Kinaed says, "Should be ready very soon."

Kinaed has transferred Deedee.  [OOC]

Cat has lost link.
Cat has reconnected.

Eos gives a plush, white stag with a magnificent rack of wood antlers to Deedee.

Kinaed rolled 1d3 for a pool of: 1. [La361]

Sparkles declaims, "Given it's automated I'm going to guess there will still be some kind of imposed, I have no idea limits? Frequency? (Don't need

Ghed states, "Sorry, I am back"

Eos says, "Demon summoning is Viridis project so it's hard for us to comment on that"

Deedee lifts a hand in greeting. "Where are we at?"

Kinaed claims to Sparkles, "Yes, there already is because to be able to summon a demon, you need to do stuff that imposes limits naturally."

Kinaed claims to Eos, "Well, in the current system as it stands, front-end."

Kinaed queries to Ghed, "Want to give us your update?"

Ghed nods.

Eos claims, "Demon summoning will be reimplemented in two weeks give or take Deedee"

Ghed claims, "This week I installed a mobprog to notify the reeves if plants get stolen from public gardens. The program does not stop the thief but
it will make it clear that they have been reported."

Ghed says, "I had to roll back on a change to magic stuff because I broke the game and Salem stood awake until like 5am to fix it single handedly."

Ghed claims, "I also studied Lithmore's northside and discovered massive parts of it had no reeve nor knight flags, such as Iolaide avenue and the
entire farin quarter. I've fixed both things, while leaving shadier or remote places (alleys, roofs, hidden rooms, sewers, wilderness, private rooms) 

Ghed states, "Moving on, I also created my first helpfile on portal objects for staffers, did many phome requests, explored off-grid locations like
rooms used in old staff plots, fixed typos, clarified helpfiles, and pestered Temi relentlessly."

Deedee states, "Oh, sounds fun"

Errisar exclaims, "You've been busy!"

Kinaed states to Ghed, "Thanks heaps for all of that :)"

Kinaed says to Eos, "You're up :)"

Deedee asks, "Ghed, will autosafe not prevent it before triggering the report?"

Eos claims, "IRL is continuing to be stressful so my time and energy is limited. I have taken out some time to do code things that would only take me
half an hour at most, so I implemented that filled containers cant be salvaged and that the IC date is displayed on login, plus one thing staff side. 
Also ran the white hart challenge - enjoyed that a lot - and spawned an absolutely ridiculous amount of mobs. Also had some good discussions with 
staff to bring up and sort out ideas."

Ghed says to Deedee, "Unfortunately no."

Lans says, "Recommends going your way, Eos."

Eos states, "Thanks, I appreciate that :)"

Kinaed claims, "Big thanks, Eos :) Especially the staff side fixer-oo :)"

Kinaed rolled 1d2 for a pool of: 1. [La361]

Kinaed claims to Temi, "You're up :)"

Temi declaims, "Ah, well!  Work has been kicking my butt with oncall so I've been pretty dead when I get in here at night"

Kinaed comforts Temi.

Deedee states, "I'm a little concerned about autowarn not preventing that, since it's supposed to prevent all such"

Kinaed claims, "Fair enough though."

Baklava states, ".. I actually always wondered why the Farin sector seemed to have 0 guardsman/options of autoreports."

Temi says, "So, I'm afraid no new craft this week, but... I did manage to go through tailoring this morning to balance out the failures/salvages."

Kinaed states to Deedee, "I'm not sure I follow what your concern is. If autowarn is on, the player should be alerted."

Kinaed has transferred Wimpled.  [OOC]

Eos gives a plush, white stag with a magnificent rack of wood antlers to Wimpled.

Deedee claims, "Sorry not autowarn"

Deedee says, "Autosafe"

Kinaed exclaims to Temi, "Deeply appreciated :) Thank you!"

Kinaed is looking for autosafe.

Sparkles questions, "Autofailsafe?"

Deedee claims, "That's the one"

Baklava claims, "Oh. Ghed. Did you check the University? I noticed every room there seems 'unsafe', as in you could probably mage about endlessly in
there. Which, also, always felt a bit strange to me."

Kinaed wonders, "Yes, so again - if you have it on, you'll get a notification that you should go elsewhere to avoid being reported. What's the issue?"

Temi says, "So they should be good at about a rounded-up 50 percent.  I kept scraps all being one type, since I don't think people wearing silk or
velvet would appreciate you putting together patchwork cloth for them, but that mainly only shows up as an extra on that 50 percent or when there's 
only 1 thing, and those numbers a re a bit more generous too"

Ionica states, "Haunted University. Oooo."

Ghed claims to Baklava, "I'll take a look but I think I did"

Temi grins.

Kinaed smiles.

Kinaed nods at Temi.

Baklava says, "Thanks."

BoltIsPogchamp claims, "Thank you so much temi"

Violet grins. "Exciting, Temi! Thank you!"

Deedee says to Kinaed, "That taking plants in public areas isn't preventing by autofailsafe but is reported to the reeves"

Kinaed says, "Oh, that versus magic."

Kinaed states, "Unfortunately, because we did this one front-end code vs back-end code, we can only do it off the trigger of someone taking the

Temi states, "We can't add failsafes for the same reason we can't stop people from uprooting them."

Temi nods.

Kinaed states, "We're limited on implementation on front-end"

Kinaed says, "Longer term, we can do something abotu that."

Ghed claims, "The report to the reeves is just a mprog"

Temi states, "But, I assume reeves will be more understanding about it than say, actually breaking into someone's house.  Especially if you return the

Deedee nods. "I'm just thinking it shouldn't be reported if it can't be prevented."

Kinaed nods at Ghed.

Ghed claims, "Like how npcs react with disgust at seeing someone naked, or savage"

BoltIsPogchamp says, "How rude, they should pay to see me naked"
Ghed questions to Deedee, "Do you not report a murder that you can't prevent?"

Kinaed finishes abruptly, "I'm not sure I agree - I think people should be circumspect with their behavior rather than relying on code to save them if
they're 'going to get caught'"

Ghed grins.

Kinaed claims, "We're open that this change has been implemented."

Deedee states, "Autofailsafe DOES stop you from attacking if it'll triger a report"

Sparkles says, "Not in all cases."

Temi muses to Ghed, "I think there's also no chance it will report your exact intro?"

Kinaed says, "This was implemented because players were tired of other players stealing all of the public plants, and having nothing that could be
done. On the whole, I think the benefit is of more value than the loss, especially since the change is announced."

Kinaed states, "People stealing the plants and other objects in rooms, were not, for example, leaving moods or IC evidence. Even staff didn't know who
was doing it."

Kinaed states, "So we couldn't help with plots to find out."

Deedee claims, "I see"

Baklava claims, "Yeah. Really glad to see a change to this. I've noticed entire craft rooms had also been robbed empty, but I'll get to refilling

Kinaed claims, "On that, there is a note that if people do want to leave objects in public for public use that should be no_take, please use a Request
Board post to make those items no_take."

Temi claims, "Working with autofailsafe would be better, but I don't think having it on should be considered a guarantee of never being able to do
anything that will get you scolded"

Baklava claims, "Yes. Me. Soon. Hah"

Baklava claims, "Already on it ;)"

Kinaed nods at Temi.

Deedee states to Temi, "For things like that, it would be more newbie friendly if it did though"

Eos says, "I think it boils down to "we cant make this autofailsafe due to how to code works""

Temi claims to Deedee, "And we just told you it can't"

Violet states, "Really grateful for the change, personally-- not being able to investigate people who emptied gardens was sucky."

Baklava nods.

Anonymous shifts completely innocently.

Kinaed claims, "At least not in the near term."

Deedee nods.

Baklava states, "And it's good to know I won't bleed all my QP into makign stuff notake for some public rooms in dire need of restocking."

Kinaed states, "Longer term, I agree with Deedee."

Kinaed nods at Baklava.

Deedee says, "Perhaps in the meanwile it could report to staff for investigation purposes, but not to reeves yet"

Kinaed states, "But this was a quick answer to a player painpoint that was requested and we felt was serious enough to warrant an intervention."

Deedee questions, "?"

Kinaed says to Deedee, "Not with front-end code."

Ghed claims, "The reeve report does not identify the culprit."

Deedee queries, "Hmm? wouldn't be a matter of just changing which channel it reports to?"

Sparkles claims, "I'm honestly not sure it's usually newbies doing it."

Murrmurs questions, "Does the mobprog report to staff for plot related follow-ups?"

Kinaed nods at Sparkles.

Ghed pontificates, "[Reeves] : A citizen informs an act of herboreal vandalism at <location>!"

Baklava claims, "I agree, Sparkles. Some of these public rooms aren't at all that easy to find."

Kinaed claims to Murrmurs, "No - we have bigger fish to fry for the large part."

Murrmurs nods

Kinaed says, "In any case, long term - the idea to have it interact with autofailsafe is noted."

Deedee nods.

Deedee claims, "Sorry for digressing."

Kinaed states, "All good :)"

Kinaed states, "Okay, I think our last staff member to go is Salem :)"

Kinaed wonders to Salem, "Any update?"

Salem states, "I worked more in the code, making loading functions happen in the refactored version. Died of a heart attack when server crashed right
before I wanted to go sleep. That was my week. Maybe I will tackle some bug boards next week to change it up."

Deedee claims, "Welcome to the afterlife. We've more coding for you. :)"

Violet exclaims, "We are glad you were revived. And revived TI. Thank you, Salem!"

Errisar declaims to Salem, "Thank you for all the hard work!!!"

Kinaed says to Salem, "Thank you so, so much for keeping the game going."

Ionica says, "Hopefully our staff KNOWS how much they are appreciated."

Kinaed smiles.

Kinaed states, "Okay, that's it for Staff Updates :)"

Kinaed muses, "Next up - Player Heartbeat! How was the game this week, folks?"

Anonymous claims, "Many many many mouse."

Deedee declares, "Arien, Balathumel, Circadnanoth, Elliueh and Lunare - rats beware!"

Kitty states, "RP has been good."

Baklava says, "Dry as the deserts of Farin."

Errisar states, "It was a mixed week for me. I was on allot because of gruelling IRL work, had some very frustrating interactions, but also had the
single best scene I've ever had mudding."

Violet says, "Very busy for me."

Deedee pontificates, "I'm glad good came with the bad, Errisar!"

Kinaed nods thoughtfully.

Baklava states, "It's been tough finding anyone, but admittedly I've also been feeling a touch reluctant on throwing more notify rp's around."

GeeBee declaims, "Got to squeeze some neat scenes in the last 1-2 weeks. Appreciating all the RP!"

Kinaed nods at Baklava.

Moonwrath says, "I'm having a good time. Just starting to get into my first character."

Kinaed questions, "We haven't noticed people using the RP opportunity channel recently. Is it because people aren't used to it or...?"

Errisar pontificates to Moonwrath, "I've had fun in every scene with you!"

Moonwrath smiles.

Murrmurs states, "RP opportunity channel? I am ootl."

Baklava states, "I've done so a few times when I was fresh. Felt I was/am the only one using it, so.. I don't know.. Reluctant. Feels like I'm either
bothering folk by using it."

Baklava claims, "RP opportunity is the NOTIFY RP stuff, Murrmurs."

Kinaed states, "Yeah, the command is a bit esoteric, so looking for it now."

Murrmurs nods.

RP Opportunity> Someone is at A Comfortable Room looking for someone to scene with.

Errisar says, "Honestly, I forgot about the RP opportunity channel."

Kinaed queries, "What was the command that did that?"

RP Opportunity> Someone is at A Comfortable Room looking for someone to scene with.

Baklava says, "NOTIFY RP."

Kinaed claims, "Oh my."

Sparkles says, "Also ... sometimes it's the rooms people are using it in."

Ionica states, "It's absolutely wonderful. I'm so happy it's been implemented."

Kinaed scuffs and looks guiltily at Temi. 

Baklava states, "I've only used it in taverns, myself."

Murrmurs declaims, "So on just coming through again's end---discovery of the channel was my issue!"

Deedee nods.

Temi wonders, "Is notify in chargen?"

Kitty has been in public more than once this week.

Deedee states, "All of the rp seeking stuff is a little disjointed at the moment"

Baklava claims, "It just doesn't feel like -the- time to use it when you see 10+ people on but haven't found anyone in a few hours."

Baklava nods.

Kitty states, "And for long periods of time. In scenes, on where."

Cat claims, "When you want to rp but no-one responds to the notify rp, so you leave some moods through half the town... yup that happens."

Kinaed states, "Anyway, thanks! I may look for ways to promote the 'notify rp' command."

Wimpled is idle.

Violet declaims, "I admit, I tend to hide away at times to catch up on crafting. But if I see an RP notify, I try to join in!"

Baklava states, "Not even sure stuff like adding an XP boost to visiting would help much :/ But yeah, a reminder it exists could be okay."

Wimpled is no longer idle.

Kinaed nods.

Wimpled has returned from AFK.

Kinaed states, "There's certainly times or reasons that being online but not available for RP is fine."

Violet claims, "I also do think sometimes people underestimate the time it takes for folks to respond. I have seen a notify, gone to the location, and
the person was already gone."

Kinaed states, "We just wanted to help people who are looking for RP be able to broadcast it."

Kinaed nods at Violet.

Kinaed says, "Well, it sounds like this week was a bit of a mixed bag for folks."

Lans states, "I have had a great week with a good balance of Order and personal RP"

Lans says, "Sorry to break the trend"

Baklava claims, "Sad about my activity :/"

Kinaed states to Lans, "Great to hear that :)"

Kinaed comforts Baklava.

Kinaed claims, "There's always next week."

Kinaed asks, "Okay, shall we jump to Player Topics?"

Kinaed questions to Errisar, "You had one pre-typed?"

Errisar queries, "I do. Three big says. Are you ready?"

Kinaed nods at Errisar.

Anonymous states, "Oh boy we're in for a three parter."

Errisar trails off, "I don't want anyone to feel called out here, so I apologize if it ccomes off poorly. Kinaed asked me to bring some of this up
after our discussion earlier today, and I want to emphasize that this relates to some individual incidents that can overshadow other positive 
interactions. In the last week Ive seen several PCs who are higher stations (already talked to staff so please dont ask for specifics) be IC or OOC 
antagonistic to freemen PCs, and in particular new PCs. This is not just simple class distinction or demanding etiquette, but ignoring them, 
sidelining them, or being hostile without good reason. Some people are going above and beyond to be inclusive and create interesting RP, but its 
happened enough that I want to bring it up. IMO this is part of our retention problem. Allot of the freemen are expected to toe the line with people 
coming down hard if there is a whiff of class impropriety, but gentry and nobility don't always behave like they should (charity, noblesse oblige, 
etc.). Not every interaction needs to involve contempt between the classes. Ive seen gentry and noble players only interact with freemen they know 
long-term rather than new players, but frequently at big events freemen have to hover on the side and wait to speak to people they either know very 
well or be spoken to. Ive seen gentry and nobility end up doing manual labor rather than asking a available orr new freeman PC to do so..."

Errisar claims, "Class expectations go both ways, and gentry and nobility have often more expectations than freemen in certain situations. We also
want to be welcoming to new PCs. This doesn't even get into directly hostile actions. Without getting into IC detail, I was there for the situation 
behind Rumor 40, and as an outsider,, the Rumor looks accurate to my recollection. I'm just glad the player who's PC the conduct was aimed at saw it 

Errisar says, "I've seen a large number of freemen PCs liquidate, which bothers me (not saying we dont have gentry liquidating but not relevant to the
point). We have some guilds that are severely down on members, and it has begun to feel like that, unless youre southside or have friends in high 
places, the only way to get quality RP is to not be a freeman. My spouse is already considering leaving because the way non-freemen have responded to 
her PC, despite having a great reception from the folks in her new guild. dont remember it being like this before I left last year, but its been 
pretty striking since I came back. I really believe in this player-base and know we can do better."

Errisar states, "That's all I have to say on that."

Temi muses, "Is this a wider issue, or a specific few?"

Baklava says, "Feels valid from past experiences."

Ionica claims, "Aww, we can't be doing that."

Kinaed wonders, "Yeah, what's going on with this?"

Errisar says to Temi, "More than four people, but there are some people who definitely go the other way to be awesome."

BoltIsPogchamp is idle.

Kinaed claims, "I have two people that I'm specifically going to talk to as a result of Errisar's coming to me earlier - it's not that it's against
policy, but just a matter of 'hey, have you thought about how you're coming off to new players' kinda thing."

Baklava says, "Oftentimes feels like you need to throw a hundred hooks out and always be on the hot chase of people to get noticed as a newer char.
I've been trying to delegate almost eveything to PCs lately on my non-Freeman char, knowing that indeed - Freeman often feel just shoved aside."

Kinaed nods at Baklava.

Temi claims, "Though we don't want to discourage grumpy characters or whatnot.  It's not great RP for everyone to be nice, but there's ways to reach
out with your grumpiness, and ways to close people off, and awesome to aim towards the first"

Anonymous says, "If this is referring to how my character will often engage in less than noble behavior, there is a very good IC reason for it... if
I'm part of this situation at all."

Violet says, "Oof. On the one hand, all for IC-antagonism and appreciate people who play mean/harsh/cruel characters. On the other hand, if people are
behaving OOC poorly or being unwelcoming to new characters, please report them to staff. That sounds entirely NOT COOL."

Kinaed states, "I think to some degree this is a bit natural because I remember feeling like I couldn't 'break into' RP back when I started TI in 1999
either. What I ended up doing to get around it was just focusing on playing with other newer players until the old guard died out and we became the 
old guard. *cough* Not saying it's a good solution per se."

Deedee nods at Anonymous.

Deedee nods at Kinaed.

Kitty claims, "I will say this much."

Baklava states, "I think I've only been able to find cyan people the last two weeks, because generally.. like I see happen often.. those are the only
ones I can walk into."

Errisar claims, "Anonymous, I don't think you are who I'm referring to, but again, don't know who everybody is here."

Kinaed nods at Baklava.

Anonymous states, "Oh, I'm just used to everyone knowing my character's name, sorry lol."

Kitty states, "Being inclusive to someone in RP doesn't necessarily mean that they get to do what they want to do. Including them in context, in
poses, in conversation, and other ways may not be the way they necessarily want to be included, but any characters might bow down and do some physical 
labor themselves rather than passing it off to someone else, depending on the context or the situation. Not passing something off to someone isn't 
being non-inclusive."

Kitty states, "Completely ignoring their existance, sure. That's not good."

Temi nods at Kitty.

Deedee nods.

Kinaed says, "What I would ask is that - TI on the whole has been struggling for players in the last couple of months. This has affected *everyone*."

Kinaed says, "If you can do anything, anything at all, in terms of being welcoming, RPing with new people, getting out of your comfort zone - please

Kinaed says, "If you don't do this, we'll lose those players, and eventually the game will just... disappear."

Baklava claims, "Break out of your bubbles, step outside of your groups; I wish there was genuine motivation for this, but stuff like familiarity not
netting (lots of) XP doesn't really do much."

Anonymous says, "I've generally reached the point where XP is meaningless to me. But I do go out of my way (I think) to meet & greet cyans if I can
find them."

Kinaed claims, "So basically, the point I'm making is that if we aren't open to new players, ultimately we're cutting off our own noses to spite our

Deedee nods at Anonymous.

Kinaed nods at Anonymous.

Temi says, "Rpxp does have the downside of being a bigger incentive for those who aren't established yet"

Baklava claims, "Precisely. That's the thing. XP is meaningless, so the motivation to RP outside of the bubble to actually earn it feels nonexistent."

Kinaed muses, "Maybe we can give a person 5 QP for every player they attain 5000 familiarity with?"

Ionica claims, "I don't see a downside to that."

Kitty claims, "That won't necessarily make people steer away from those they are most comfortable with. Alts are a thing."

Kinaed queries, "Maybe we can let people donate RPxp to one another?"

Kinaed claims, "I dunno, spitballing"

Anonymous shakes his head at Kinaed "I dunno about that one."

Kinaed claims, "But honestly, this problem isn't really a mechanical one."

Deedee nods.

Murrmurs agrees with kin.

Anonymous says, "I could personally fund several people to getting grandmaster combat skills in less than a day if I could just give people xp."

Baklava claims, "Yeah. Alts are a thing."

Anonymous states, "I can see that being abused."

Kinaed states, "It's about how people playing the game view the world and how willing they are to just open up and let other people into their RP"

Deedee states, "I think letting players gift QP to eachother might be good, but probably not rpxp"

Kinaed states, "In fact, I recently saw a recommend go into the recommend queue saying that a GL is the first in a particular guild to include other
guild members in their RP, disseminating tasks and holding guild meetings to share the RP topics. "

Anonymous states, "I mean, you can turn QP into xp, but they are harder to come by."

Kitty says, "I personally hold onto both of those with tight fists. Just because I don't need it now, doesn't mean I won't need it later."

Kinaed claims, "I don't really see a lot of evidence of stuff like that going on."

BoltIsPogchamp is no longer idle.
BoltIsPogchamp has returned from AFK.

Kinaed queries, "A bit here and there (and thank you for those doing it), but it might be a good idea for people to actively think about how they can
share RP or promote RP?"

Baklava states, "It blows how TIL feels like you need close friends to make it meaningful these days, whereas a few other MUDs I've tried a few months
ago, I can find RP with new folk in about an hour reliably. And a few of those had smaller playerbases than we do."

Kinaed nods at Baklava.

BoltIsPogchamp says, "Agreed"

Violet declaims, "RE: RP, there is a public event going on after this! It is a great opportunity to meet new people, so please come :)"

Kinaed claims to Violet, "Thanks :) Big appreciation to people running events for others, btw. Please remember to tell staff who is running them so we
can award them :)"

Eos claims, "Awarded already :)"

Kinaed claims, "Beautiful."

Cat says, "As a guidleader I always talk to cyan and try to rope them into our guild or give errands and rp hooks. But they never stick around and I
don't know what to do more of."

Kitty states, "I... admit that I find it a bit discomforting that people blame others that they can't find RP. I know for a while I wasn't around a
lot, but just about every time I log in now, there are people in public and available. I don't think it's a situation of lack of availability."

Baklava states, "I sadly only have ~ 1h for that, but I'll try energize up some. Events are always great, and yes- The playerbase is great at hosting

Deedee says, "I've had similar troubles, Cat"

Sparkles states, "Sometimes it feels like the issue is that people don't want to RP with who is available. Rather than RP being available."

Kinaed says to Kitty, "In the specific situation reported to me, it wasn't about finding the RP, it was about what was happening IN the RP when it was
found - with the new player not being engaged, and the others 'hogging' the scene."

Moonwrath claims, "I have had some good experiences meeting people so far. If people turn on the RP tag I just wander in that direction."

Baklava says, "That, Sparkles."

Errisar claims, "This situation involves people who can find people to RP with but are sidelined or ignored, or dismissed at the earliest

Kitty trails off, "Not to mention, as much as it discomforts me personally, tells have been reinstated. There are pboards. Invites...."

Deedee says, "That happens too, Sparkles.""

Kitty nods at Kinaed.

Kinaed nods at Errisar.

Kitty claims, "I'm not speaking about one incident, I'm commenting on the current conversation."

Errisar nods to Kitty.

Kinaed claims, "I think the current conversation, if we look at it in light of not 'can they find someone to RP with' but more of a 'what will their
reception be if they do find someone to RP with', we can probably see how we as a playerbase need to behave to retain players."

BoltIsPogchamp says, "This is my first mud and the thing is, scheduling rp like that isnt something you think of"

Kinaed nods at BoltIsPogchamp.

BoltIsPogchamp claims, "And when you dont know anyone you just dont dare bother them like that"

Murrmurs nods.

BoltIsPogchamp says, "And if your char doesnt know anyone, then it makes no sense to try and schedule rp"

Baklava says, "I find it a touch frustrating to always hear I have to abuse tells, pboards, invites, notifies, just to find some basic interaction and
even meet a character."

BoltIsPogchamp says, "Yes, this. theres just no good in to RP often."

Kitty states, "That wasn't my point."

Baklava says, "I think I've only ever been approached like that once, myself; So I'm not sure it's -the- best suggestion."

Kinaed claims to Baklava, "Yeah, I don't think that's the right message."

Errisar nods to Baklava.

Sparkles says, "I do think there is a balance where folks need to be slightly proactive."

Kitty says, "THAT is my point."

Moonwrath questions, "A good way for nobles to engage a new character might be a paid labor/favor RP? I know my freemen character is in need of

Errisar states, "I think we are having two valid, yet different, discussions which have some overlap between them."

Anonymous says, "Most nobles just don't need anything, honestly."

Kitty says, "There is stuff going on in public. Go to it. If nothing going on in public interests you, find something that will. Don't expect others
to provide it for you."

Kinaed states, "And again - I think there are so many channels to finding RP, that it's not really the issue as much as - finding people who want to
RP with strangers, who actively share their RP hooks with others, who invite new players and other people into their RP rather than RP around them, 
push them out, keep them out, etc."

Sparkles says, "That's ... not at all accurate."

Baklava states, "That's good advice, I agree. But mostly, look at that point in reflection- of yourself."

Ionica says, "Heck, I'm an old-time player, Bolt, and I still feel that way. Bothering people for RP can be hella anxiety-inducing. I've been working
hard to overcome that, though. I like how inoffensive the notify command is. It's such a light little bump, with no immediate commitment from either 

BoltIsPogchamp claims, "Oh yea, i have seen a bunch of cyans who just huddled in a corner and didnt react to me actively pulling them in either. but
that is not the kinda player that im thinking of."

GeeBee is idle.

Sparkles says, "IE the thought that nobles don't need things."

Deedee says, "There were nobles in the past who did a lot of hiring and such. I think it's harder to do these days with how hard it is to amass silver
even has a gentry/noble"

GeeBee is no longer idle.
GeeBee has returned from AFK.

BoltIsPogchamp says, "And public rp isnt that often available either. its gotten better lately though. "

Murrmurs claims, "My sense in sum: There is a perceived need for greater openness regarding RP with unfamiliar/new faces, and there isn't enough
public RP available to hook into."

Moonwrath ponders.

Baklava states, "I don't think I've seen you in public once in the last half year, Kitty.. It definitely isn't available that often."

Murrmurs asks, "Is that in line with what folks are feeling?"

Baklava states, "Maybe we are vastly apart in timezones, though. I know EU is always in conflict to match up with US, especially west-coast US."

Kitty claims, "While I appreciate not attacking me personally, I have been in public multiple times on multiple characters 'in the last half year'.
Including in the last couple days."

Kinaed claims, "I dunno if there isn't enough RP too hook into - earlier today, staff were discussing that we had an influx of AE players who left
because they were able to find RP - but most of it was tavern RP and no one really engaging them deeper into the game, if that makes sense."

Kinaed states, "Not sure how it relates to broader things, and I want to note that Kitty isn't on trial here."

Wimpled says, "Kitty was in public just before OOC chat."

Kinaed states, "Please respect the OOC Chat pact. :)"

Kinaed claims, "A reminder of the OOC Chat Pact: Regardless of what we discuss, we understand and truly believe that everyone on TI does the best they
can, given what they know at the time, their skills and abilities, the resources available, and the situation at hand. We will be respectful of this 
and each other at all times."

Moonwrath pontificates, "Gotta start in the tavern if you want to go deep!"

Kitty states, "With all due respect, just because oen person hasn't seen it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened."

Kinaed nods at Kitty.

Kinaed states, "Exactly."

Kinaed claims, "Moving away from individuals."

Anonymous recalls taking a stroll through Southside and no one caring...

Kinaed claims, "On the whole, please if you can invite someone in - do so."

Sparkles states, "To that ... TI is an intrigue game, wanting to involve people in the 'deep game' often comes with risks to the established folks and
thus requires establishing trust. But sometimes it feels like people kind of expect it to happen almost instantly."

Errisar says, "Again, I think the finding RP issue is different from how people are treated during RP. This is not a reflection on everyone but on the
culture that sometimes is created."

Kinaed nods at Sparkles.

Baklava states, "That deep game is what is killing it, though, Sparkles. There's a part where the intrigue has to wane a little. Even if I know how
much damage has been done by letting folk in, who turned out to be Serrils and such."

Baklava claims, "Or well, not killing per say. But it's hurting, I want to say, for sure."

Moonwrath muses, "Who is Serril?"

Anonymous says, "That's a long long story"

Baklava says, "We'd probably all rather forget about it, too."

Kinaed states, "A player who had multiple alts, and a staff member, and abused powers, lied a lot, etc."

Kinaed claims, "Big problem across the board."

Kinaed states, "Gone now."

BoltIsPogchamp claims, "Its rather frustrating - its a feeling of, nothing ever happens."

Sparkles says, "Plenty of things happen."

Errisar nods to BoltIsPogChamp.

Baklava states, "For a very limited group of players only, perhaps, I feel."

Baklava states, "I agree with Bolt."

BoltIsPogchamp claims, "But nothing of importance, or at least im not involved in it"

Kinaed asks, "I am so sorry - our time is up. I'm happy to continue with this topic because the sense that 'nothing juicy ever happens, or if it does,
three people who grab it and hold onto it to the exclusion of all others' is a big issue - and I'd love to discuss it. But if anyone has to go or if 
the convo is getting uncomfortable, I can trans people out who want to leave?"

Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:56 pm

Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:09 pm

Lans says, "Me"

Deedee states, "I do think a lot of the deeper plots are targetted only to a small subset of the characters"

Baklava says, "This is that divide. Where the deep intrigue is separating established folk from those who hardly have much solid
ground beneath their feet."

Errisar claims, "We are all talking from our own individual perspectives, none of which accurately reflect the whole of what is
actually happening. It's important to recognize that other perspectives are valid to those people."

Wimpled has been transferred out by Kinaed.  [OOC]

Deedee states, "With little encouragement to involve others"

Errisar agrees with Baklava.

Lans has been transferred out by Kinaed.  [OOC]

BoltIsPogchamp states, "Theres also a need for plots to involve more players to begin with, i think"

Kinaed nods at BoltIsPogchamp.

Moonwrath says, "I'll transfer out."

Moonwrath waves.

Deedee waves.

Baklava states, "I had ideas for a plot. Working on some on the side. I'll give priority to new chars, because it'll also be oriented
around newer chars, Freeman, those without much money/status in the City, etc."

BoltIsPogchamp says, "When much is top level stuff only, then expecting it trickles down, not gonna happen"

GeeBee has been transferred out by Kinaed.  [OOC]

Baklava nods.

Moonwrath has been transferred out by Kinaed.  [OOC]

Kinaed muses, "Anyone else want a trans out?"

Ionica claims, "It's tough to expect other players to reach out and put their characters at risk, to better my RP, when I'm not
willing to put myself out first. There's responsibility on both sides."

Sparkles claims, "Don't get me wrong, I'd love to do my part in helping fix this. I try by creating public scenarios or being in
public or giving people hooks into things. But there's an aspect where a lot of these convos end up feeling kind of accusatory in a
way that I admit kind of hurts my morale."

Kinaed nods at Ionica.

Deedee nods.

BoltIsPogchamp claims, "I understand that, and I'm sorry if that is the kinda vibe I sent out. "

Baklava claims, "Same."

Errisar states, "I hear you Sparkles. I'm trying to address this as a broad cultural issue. None of us are perfect 100 percent of the
time, and we all need grace while talking about the hard problems as frankly as we can."

Baklava states, "I've invested lots of years in TIL. I just want this game to feel more alive again, to see people I enjoyed playing
with stick and not disappear, feel like they got chased out, etc. Because I've always passionately promoted TIL before."

BoltIsPogchamp claims, "I have to do my part too, I haven't been too engaging either"

Murrmurs agrees with Errisar.

Violet questions, "Does any have recommendations for solutions?"

RP Opportunity> Someone is at Queen's Inn and Tavern looking for someone to scene with.

Kinaed states, "A long time ago, I tabled that TI might actually benefit from being a consensual game. We didn't do it. I hear rumor
that AE has actually done it, and gotten good results. I don't imagine it being popular here though, because being a 'high stakes PK
of RP games' is kinda our schtick. But I get the idea that the risk-reward balance here is so extreme that it can be hard for people
to invite people in that they don't trust."

Kinaed claims, "And trust takes time."

Anonymous states, "AE did indeed make PK consent based."

Kinaed nods at Anonymous.

Anonymous claims, "The only exception being legal executions."

Kinaed says, "Players have been complaining about our risk reward scenario for ages."

Baklava claims, "On point of the 'risk my RP', I kind of feel that is a bit of a strange point nowadays. WIth our limited playerbase,
conflcit has been almost nonexistent, so I am curious how people may perceive this danger from manifesting."

Kinaed queries, "Anyway, I'm not sure - is that the deep cause of our being closed to new players?"

Deedee says, "Yeah. The balance is pretty bad on TI"

Baklava queries, "Like.. what -does- worry you, when considering including newer/strange folk?"

Kinaed nods at Baklava.

Errisar nods.

Kinaed claims, "Yeah, nothing worries me. For my part, I'm often so busy that pushing RP onto other people's plates is a relief."

Sparkles states, "I can say that I've invited friends to the game who have experienced the same issues mentioned from other people, so
I can't say what's said is inaccurate."

Baklava says, "I generally have close to zero commitment to my characters. Know they may die at any point, and while I'll miss story
missed out on or ties being severed, fresh chars are what keeps a game alive."

Kinaed nods at Baklava.

Baklava says, "Generally never like ti when my characters jsut exist for 2+ years."

Baklava claims, "But that's me, so it's a genuine question- What do people worry about, when it comes to inclusion."

'The problem with the balance, is yes there is very little conflict, so for example the reeves and knights have little to do. So when
there is just a smidge of conflict they jump on it and often blow it out of proportion

Deedee says, "The problem with the balance, is yes there is very little conflict, so for example the reeves and knights have little to
do. So when there is just a smidge of conflict they jump on it and often blow it out of proportion"

Sparkles claims, "Inclusion in what."

Kinaed nods at Deedee.

BoltIsPogchamp claims, "Honestly at this point making this a consentual game might be worth considering because otherwise this will
just snuff out one day "

Temi says, "I know for my characters, I often put out a general thing of interest, and then engage those who reply about it, and
that's more likely to be the same set of players."

(visnet) Player Cecilia: Hello, how do I get to the location of the hunting festival?

Kinaed claims, "I've experienced that. I once had a character who, in a thought, indicated they weren't on the up and up and had a
secret... the IC 'interrogation' that followed that from all sides - and it was a THOUGHT - for the next two weeks was sooooo painful
I didn't want to experience it again."

Murrmurs plays the drapes and is not positioned to comment on character turn-over.

Deedee nods at Kinaed.

BoltIsPogchamp states, "To be fair i think maybe - yes, it might be a self enforcing cycle of nothing happens, theres no conflict, so
nothing happens, yadda yadda."

Baklava claims, "Anything. That deep intrigue. The behind-the-curtains stuff. The behind-closed-doors scenes. The storylines. Personal
archs and stories of their growth and development. Etc. I don't think I know of one personal arch from a character that's happened in
the last year, mostly because my characters have always struggled get from acquaintance to semi-friendly with some (also to blame on
my own timezones, etc.)"

Kinaed claims, "It was like 'wth, the thought could have been generated by what she ate that morning' - but clearly a mage overheard
it and shared it with like 5 people who all HAD TO KNOW."

Murrmurs says, "I recollect, years ago, having a character thoroughly dressed down and treated as suspect from then-on-forward for
peeking in public."

BoltIsPogchamp states, "Maybe there just isnt something going on, in terms of behind the curtains stuff"

Errisar claims, "One thing we can do is always engage those around us. If someone is not being engaged, reach out to them IC or OOC if
necessary. It doesn't have to be super-friends, but it needs to be rewarding for all parties. Some people can feel pushed out or
locked out if everyone else knows each other and emotes around them or don't acknowledge their emotes. We also need to be willing to
play so that other people are shown in their best light. Sometimes we play to lose a little so there is give and take."

Temi nods at Kinaed.

Kitty states, "Those are the most high risk to pull people into - both new players and established ones. The whole deep intrigue
thing. That will take time to dig into for any new character, established player or not. Which makes sense, as it requires IC trust,
which takes time to establish."

Ionica says, "...I have had numerous interactions with cyans where I put in all I got, ICLy, trying to be inclusive and give them an
opportunity to bite into whatever it is that I've got going on, and then get nothing but one line, nothing at all emotes back. I
understand folks are new, but, there's a fatigue that can set in after a while."

Kinaed says to BoltIsPogchamp, "I highly doubt that. "Behind the curtains" stuff happens simply because two perspectives in game don't
align, and suddenly Person A's view of the world is half behind a curtian, shared with Person B, who also has a curtian, etc."

Cat is idle.

Kinaed claims, "So behind the scenes stuff is natural and rife. It's easy to see as a staff member whens omeone pops up and says "Hey,
can you check out X to make sure it's not OOC" and sure enough, it's not OOC."

Errisar says, "You are right about creating trust, Kitty. I will specifically create situations to build trust to slowly bridge that
gap. I know I'm taking risks, but that's part of the excitement."

Deedee nods at Kinaed.

Violet asks, "I've been struggling with that too @Ionica. I've had some great scenes with new characters recently, but I've also had a
few that seemed to be frustrated and disengaged from the beginning. Maybe I just got to them too late?"

Deedee says, "I've felt the same, Violet."

Kinaed nods at Violet.

Baklava claims, "I try never give off those vibes. Even when I have to go, I'll try stick around for several long, descriptive emotes.."

Kitty states, "My point is that it isn't an immediate thing. And building those bridges depends on BOTH sides."

Cat is no longer idle.

Cat states, "Okay, but if a chara ter doesn't react to me then what am I to do? Some people don't rp back."

Baklava says, ".. oftentimes to my alarm clock's surprise."

Baklava says, "That must blow. I haven't experienced that much, and most of the times I give those the benfit of the doubt. Maybe RL
called or something."

Violet claims, "I struggle to build interest and intrigue when I don't get anything back. Not saying this is ANYONE present here rn,
but I do think it's a challenge. I'm not an NPC just standing around handing out plots, I need the other person's help too."

Baklava nods.

Baklava claims, "Yes. That. Mutual giving is necessary."

Violet claims, "And if someone's willing to engage me, I will do everything I can to get them looped up in some intrigue."

BoltIsPogchamp says, "Yea of course if the other person doesnt engage thats on their side"

Errisar states, "We need to handle things scene by scene. I rarely have times where a cyan does not respond to me. I would say that it
is the minority who refuse to engage."

Kinaed has lost link.
Kinaed has reconnected.

Errisar says, "It's still valid to step out if they don't. Not a criticism of people who feel burned by it. It can be hard to
repeatedly open a door, but that's part of the game."

Violet claims, "I had an incident recently of someone complaining to me that a cyan they'd spoken to was upset at the length of time
it was taking to be guilded. I had sent multiple notifies and messengers, tried to send them tells to see how things were going and if
I could help, etc. and gotten nil back"

Kinaed says, "I think the fundamental fact is that, tired or not, there's no one else but us to keep trying to engage people."

Kinaed states, "I mean, I get it. We've all been there where we've had a bad RP encounter with someone."

Kinaed claims, "But we're the ones who are here and are the pbase."

Ionica nods at Kinaed.

Kinaed states, "If we don't do something about being inclusive and trying, no one else will do it for us."

Deedee nods at Kinaed.

Baklava claims, "Been there, Violent. I think those people are just not used to this style of MUD. Maybe more used to how it goes in,
say, an IronRealms Mud where you can start out Guilded. Or where anyone can fire a guild join Superheroes kind of command and
instantly be in."

Baklava declaims, "Violet*!"

Sparkles states, "Also ... someone who is frustrated might be frustrated about staff that happened before you talk to them."

Violet claims, "I am Violent too. Muahaha."

Baklava hides.

Baklava horribly fails his hide check! []

Sparkles states, "Or if someone told them something different."

Murrmurs cracks knuckles.

Kinaed says, "I do think we have some natural bottlenecks in game we need to potentially consider weakening."

Anonymous trails off, "I have bad memories of ironrealm games..."

Baklava says, "Agreed."

Anonymous handily succeeds his hide check! []

'There is supposed to be a guild-from-the-start system going in soon yes?

Deedee muses, "There is supposed to be a guild-from-the-start system going in soon yes?"

Sparkles says, "I've been shocked at times the things I've had cyans come to me and say someone else told them."

Deedee says, "Autoguild for xp thing"

Kinaed claims, "But we hold onto our culture a lot. For example, GLs are often busy, seeking is a difficult process for new players -
so the danger of letting them start guilded... other games do it."

Baklava says, "We should all be able to reach a middle ground, some consensus, gather a plan of sorts - even if small at first."

Violet says, "While I think this conversation is super useful, I do want to make sure this IC event starts before it gets too late. Is
there a way we could gather to discuss this possible solutions more in the future? Like have a specific meeting for this issue."

Kinaed says, "I personally think it's a bit blown out of proportion by GLs when we try to suggest that we'd do away with seeking and
just let people buy in."

Violet says, "Because it does seem to come up repeatedly."

BoltIsPogchamp says, "Letting people start guilded would help a lot"

Murrmurs I wonder how valuable meta-plots that demand changes in play behavior can help in this sort of situation; from my
recollection some of the best RPintrigue I've played on this game has occurred in the wake of the game's players having to shake up
their standard play for a while.

Baklava says, "I did not suggest we need to have something like autoguild from chargen. At all. I like how this system already invites
them to engage in RP to be set up guilded."

BoltIsPogchamp claims, "And a specific meeting for this might help too"

Kinaed pontificates, "Okay, yes! Thanks! IC Event is more important. Thanks for the conversation though, everyone!"

Kinaed says, "We should wrap it up so we can let the good IC work happen :)"

Anonymous claims, "I am staunchly against letting people just start already guilded unless its agreed to by the GL."

Anonymous claims, "Or doing away with seeking."

Baklava says, "Though maybe something like the Seeker stuff being a bit more automatable would help. Like a specific message/board
post they get upon signing up in chargen to become a potential Merchant."

Murrmurs has been transferred out by Kinaed.  [OOC]

BoltIsPogchamp claims, "Theres no joy in spending an ooc month trying to get into a guild as a new player."

Baklava claims, "I've approached people as past GL who weren't aware of ALL the options they had to approach the Guild."

Sparkles says, "Then we need to address inactive GLs more aptly if we want to have Guilding completely rely on GLs."

BoltIsPogchamp states, "And no one you can rp with. "

Violet claims, "I would love to be able to use the guild command while not in the same room as someone! Random note. Would be
extraordinarily helpful to guild and send mail from afar if they've been sponsored and time zones are shite."

Kinaed claims, "Okay, I'm going to wrap the meeting up now :) Thank you for your participation."

Deedee states, "A lot of the ghalls aren't laid out in a way that would be very good for non-vetted inductees"

Violet declaims, "Thank you, Kin!"

Kinaed states, "I hope we have some solutions coming."

Ionica claims, "<3"

Deedee waves.

Kinaed declaims, "Meanwhile, have a great day!"

Baklava waves.

Errisar waves.

Kinaed retrans in 5...

Kinaed says, "4."

Violet exclaims, "And thank you all for your imput! <3 much love"

Baklava braces.

Kinaed trails off, "3..."

Kinaed states, "2."

Kinaed claims, "1.."

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