Log of OOC Meeting - 3/28/20

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Sparkles
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:52 pm

Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:19 pm

Temi questions, "So, our agenda for today: 1) Staff Updates, 2) Player Heartbeat, 3) Player Topics. Does anyone have any topics to get on the list already?"

Temi says, "I did get one anonymous topic already."

ToffeeApples says, "I have one"
Temi nods at ToffeeApples.

Sparkles claims, "I have a topic."

Erika nods at Sparkles.

Erika states, "Make sure to pre-write them so you can post it when I ask."

Temi states, "Okay, staff updates then. Starting with me: I've just been hard at work on keeping up with plots, and doing work stuff, which has been keeping me busier than usual. I also specced up a fix for people coming on grid after e.g. applications and already being inactive with a deteriment"

Temi asks, "And Erika?"

Raspberries queries, "Hows the contest coming?"

Temi says, "Good reminder. I'd gotten a bit distracted."

Erika states, "Still recovering a bit from sickness. I'm working on stuff from my end, improving the web-client that still needs to be pushed through, and generally fitting gaps wherever they are."

Temi exclaims, "Everyone: please go and add some more suggestions for Farin perspectives!"

Temi says, "I'm at my parents' this weekend and I'll probably wrap it up when I get back early next week. So, last chance for those nice easy QPs"

Raspberries scoots a bit away from Erika.

Temi wonders, "Any questions on any of the staff update things?"

Jiraiya shakes his head no

Quartz declaims, "Hai!"

Temi queries, "Okay, then on to player heartbeat. How's RP been this week, folks?"

Kitty says, "Phew."

Pepper declares, "It's been pretty great for me!"

Naomi pontificates, "BUSY, so busy!"

Wight pontificates, "Pretty decent!"
Erika smiles.

Quartz says, "Great! Had a lot of interesting scenes! I am pleased. :3"

Jiraiya states, "We've had two new players talk about not being able to find RP so on the heartbeat front I'd urge people to be publicly available for RP when they can and to involve cyans"

Sparkles states, "It's been a bit spotty at times, but the Market was good fun."

Erika claims, "Whoops."

Temi wonders, "Spotty meaning availability of RP or spotty on it being good RP?"

Sparkles says, "Both."

Temi nods.

Temi queries, "Anything staff ought to be aware of for those negatives?"

Raspberries claims, "That reminds me, Niamh had posted a while back looking for ideas to encourage remaining on whererp"
Temi nods.

Brando claims, "I put RP off until I went mad with quarantine world wide lockdown ...then some one reached out for RP on discord and i got into the game last night and played my little butt off as best i could lol. it was dramatic to say the least. I had fun."

Temi exclaims, "Fun is good, as far as I'm concerned!"
Temi grins.

Raspberries wonders, "(https://ti-legacy.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2189)"

Temi claims, "Still happy for more suggestions, of course"

Kitty states, "As I posted, I haven't been able to be around as much. It should (should) slow down, but we had a temp that didn't work out at work, and then we're also dealing with hundreds of requests for online materials, so... where I usually have time during the day, I simply haven't."

Sparkles states, "There was some frustration about the WhereRP situation expressed on the OOC channel that was a bit awkward. As someone frequently and often on WhereRP but not often reached out to, I'm sometimes uncertain what else to do to address that worry."

Kuzco says, "I had a good week, yeah, though I've been playing less and recharging my energies."
Temi comforts Kitty.
Temi nods at Sparkles.

Kuzco says, "Oh, we're at the complaints."
Temi exclaims to Kuzco, "Happy to still hear happy stuff!"

Temi states, "It's all player heartbeat"

Quartz states, "I always try to keep an alt just sitting in public. "

Pepper questions, "Sorry, Sparkles, I'm missing context - can you explain that 'situation' so I understand?"

Truth says, "Yeah, it always sucks to see new players get frustrated.:("

Brando says, "Maybe a rec bonus for staying on whereRP for long time would be appropriate. say +1 percent per week if you get average RP activity or better."

Temi says, "I think a new player was complaining that there was no one around to RP with on the OOC channels, but Sparkles is saying she was available, and no one had been reaching out or coming by, which is always a bit frustrating"

Jiraiya claims, "Some of the new players don't really know how to find RP too so there's that"

Kitty states, "I've seen a few times where people are complaining there's no one on where, but there absolutely are."

Venamelia says, "I usually remove my whererp because I end up in rooms that people can not reach. But the week had been... fun. Impactful meeting with the GI, pursuing a bunch of things, I would say it would have been more difficult to be left to my own than it had been to find people for this past week. And yeah, for new player, you can always pboard me and we can work on setting something up :)"

Erika claims, "Often these complaints feel like they're not that there isn't anyone available, and more that there isn't 'multiple people at the same spot'."
Temi nods at Erika.

Truth states, "Where on WHERERP is pretty important tbh. Some rooms seem like they aren't accessible at all. Even from the Crossroads."

Quartz trails off, "Perhaps they dont know what is public or not? Not every location on where is public..."

Kitty says, "And other times where it's all behind xblocks for guilds, but... guild RP is something that a lot of people enjoy."

Pepper states, "... I will say that I did not feel as if that was anyone else's fault. They were given lots of attention from everyone and put it down repeatedly."

Wight says, "I'm with pepper on this one"

Pepper claims, "You shouldn't let that affect your mood! It's just one of those things."

Jiraiya says, "Just reminding people to make an effort is all. Not saying folks suck or anything."

Sparkles claims, "It can make it feel like the issue isn't there's no RP but not with whom people want. Probably not the intented inference, but I admit it can ding my morale at times."

Kitty says, "In comparison with the past, people are making a genuine effort to be available, as far as I can tell."

Naomi states, "I am usually on where, but unfortunately not always accessible due to crafting. But! Literally anyone can message me for anything at all."

Kitty states, "What Sparkles said."

Temi asks, "Is there something that people need to address more, or just a squeaky wheel currently?"

Jiraiya says, "Two squeeky wheels that could use a hand."

Sparkles states, "Also if people are on Where, not being suprised/upset/offended if people walk in."

Raspberries questions, "Or some lube?"

Venamelia questions, "Well, whoever is the new player, really feel free to pboard me. And I think there was a lot of RP at the Queen's this week?"

Jiraiya nods to sparkles and says, "that was an issue once too apparently."
Temi nods.

Temi claims, "Well, we'll keep an eye on it."

Temi claims, "And if anyone has ideas for more that should be happening, we'll be glad to hear them."

Temi questions, "Anyone have anything else or should we move on to player topics?"

Sparkles says, "Also don't forget, join rooms in public spots can be used for "Don't want to be a recluse but don't want everyone hearing 100 percent of this.""

Kuzco claims, "Hmmm"

Raspberries queries, "Someone's bringing up the tracking thing already?"

Kitty states, "Sorry, guys. I got burnt out of arranging activities after several funerals in only a few weeks, a wedding, and a 5 day tournament. So, I am sure I'll run stuff again, but it may take a bit."

Kuzco claims, "Kinda noticing that people are not posting rumors or recs of late"
Temi nods at Raspberries.
Raspberries nods.

Temi says, "It was presubmitted as a topic"

Kitty claims, "Recommends have been scarce, yes."
Temi states to Kitty, "You already warned us you were busy too"

Kuzco states, "Oh me and Sparkles are prepping an ST for anyone who wants to join"

Temi states, "We do have some recommends that still need processed, too"

Temi says, "So it's not all that people aren't recommending, but there may be some still coming."

Kitty says, "Yeeees, I am busy."

Venamelia muses, "What is the ST about? :o And yeah, I submitted two recs this week, will need another few weeks before I try to give one to everyone >_>"

Temi claims, "Okay, onto topics then, starting with a couple of presubmitted ones."
Kuzco claims to Venamelia, "It will take place in Asglen, and that's all I'm saying."
Venamelia nods.

Temi finishes abruptly, "First off, an anonymous one: I dont know if this is apprioriate for the meeting but if so i have an anonymous topic - which is that fire magic could use a bit more "swiss army knife" spells"

Quartz trails off, "I wanna go to Assglen.... "

Kuzco claims, "I don't follow."

Kitty asks, "Fire is pretty powerful, isn't it?"

Raspberries queries, "Swiss army knife spell?"

Temi questions, "Clearly, no one here is a mage, wink wink, but if anyone has any prior experience with fire mages... any thoughts? Are they versatile enough?"

Wight states, "I don't know if anything has been added in the last few years but my reocllection is that they have very limited strengths"

Tasker says, "Yeah I don't much follow either, there are many useful spells of Fire, but you can't have one element that can do everything. "

Kitty , has not played a fire mage. Does not know for sure.

Temi says, "I assume this means spells with varied utilities"

Wight states, "Especially compared to something like void or water"

Jiraiya says, "I think they have some very strong spells but not a lot of utility spells."

Naomi claims, "Fire is fine, I would say."

Raspberries says, "Ah"

Wight states, "When fire spells are strong they are super strong. But they don't really have any day to day spells that you can just sort of passively evoke and see an impact for imo"

Tasker claims, "I would agree that fire is fine, personally. It has limitations, but it also has some great strengths."

Temi asks, "Are there specific utilities that some people think they are lacking?"

Kuzco muses, "Boil water? Thaw ice?"

Kitty claims, "I'd say that fire, from what I know of it, has some HUGE strengths. Definitely things other mages can't do."

Kuzco states, "IDK I always thought it to be the strongest moon"

Tasker says, "I dunno, Wight. There is a really good passive buff they have."

Raspberries muses, "Keep your coffee earm?"

Wight says, "That buff isn't also something which tends to affect your RP the way that say... auspex does. Comes with pretty big drawbacks too."

Jiraiya claims, "That buff is good but has issues. I dunno, I could see one or two more "every day" spells"

Wight trails off, "Eye of the hawk for air. Free baths for water.... Earth has shrooms"

Temi claims, "We do like for different elements to have a different feel, so that it feels like playing a different type of character, instead of just reskinning the same set of things"

Tasker states, "True, but that's the point of being able to learn spells of other elements. If you're lacking in yours, you need to find an element to accompany it. Fire mages are not locked to fire spells. "

Naomi claims, "But to that end, void magic doesn't have some of the crazy strong spells that fire magic has."

Wight says, "I actually think that void has some of the craziest spells by power even after they've been nerfed"

Naomi asks, "Which is fine, they're not supposed to all be the same, I don't think?"

Raspberries states, "I haven't had any mages since original TI, so don't really know enough to make a suggestion"

Temi finishes abruptly, "But there should be people which would be excited about any individual element - it doesn't have to be the same people for every element, though"
Temi nods at Naomi.

Jiraiya claims, "I think it benefits the game when people are using magic regularly instead of just on rare impactful instances"

Quartz trails off, "I agree with Jiraiya..."

Quartz states, "Also, nerf Air. "

Brando nods

Tasker claims, "I think that Fire is probably the least useful element day to day, but some of the spells they have are incredibly useful in certain situations. It's a tradeoff, it's by far one of the most direct elements, because it's... well, fire."
Naomi nods.

Jiraiya states, "I'd rather not nerf anyone but there is a spell within air that's really "useless if you have ash and OP world ending if you dont""

Kitty states, "Healing, rebirth... it has stuffs."

Tasker says, "And the point again, Mages are able to learn spells of other elements."

Wight says, "Ah I forgot it has rebirth now."

Temi claims, "It sounds like there are some people which think fire is pretty good, and others who wish it was more often, rather than only the big things"

Jiraiya wonders, "Does it actually have direct healing?"

Quartz says, "Jir, yes. "

Raspberries claims, "Fire is the healing one yeah"

Naomi says, "There is healing, yes."

Venamelia stares blankly at the magery talking and understands nothing of it, not even the context.

Kitty trails off, "I am of the opinion that it's fine, but again, not a fire mage, so..."

Pepper questions, "... it sounds to me like 'healing' alone is a really useful day-to-day ability?"

Temi states, "Here's from an anonymous fire mage: I have submitted and contend that one of the biggest lacks or oddities of Fire is not having a 'practical' low level spell. That there is not indeed a spell that allows you to summon fire in a functional manner. You can't produce say ... a torch or a cooking fire. "

Kuzco wishes to remind you that there are players here who have never played a mage, and might not wanna hear so much.

Yinadele claims, "It's hard to comment here because there's no way for me to know what spells exist. There's a lot of OOC advantage to having played a mage and knowing what they can do as a result of that restricted information, it seems; I don't think it's easy to talk aout."

Quartz says, "Referencing my index of magey things, it looks to have the least magecraft items as well, and some arent even usable because the spells dont exist anymore "

Kuzco states, "You can just use the light command to light anything in a natural, mundane way."

Tasker claims, "I agree that it could probably use a low level utility spell, it has one to make a sorta torch- but not to create a fire for tool purposes."

Temi wonders, "If the spell doesnt exist anymore, please typo that? I know we've fixed some"

Raspberries wonders, "Which element has the orb of light?"

Venamelia says, "Uh.. I will just go afk for... five, ten minutes. That is all too magic for me."

Wight claims, "Fire"

Temi says, "So, I think we'd be happy to hear about specific spell suggestions, maybe how that fire creation one would work."

Quartz says, "Will do when i get home. "

Wight wonders, "I'll brainstorm some as well. Do you want a forum post for this?"

Temi finishes abruptly, "Okay - to the forums with those ideas then, as you guys come up with them"
Temi nods.
Raspberries nods.

Temi states, "No promises on how quickly we can prioritize them, though."
Raspberries nods.
Raspberries nods.

Temi states, "But staff will make sure to discuss the ideas we get."

Jiraiya ponders a fire spell that cooks the perfect steak

Temi states, "Okay, another pre-submitted topic then, from Lans. He wanted folks to discuss his forum post about tracking no longer being possible on city streets"

Jiraiya says, "Thank god"

Kuzco states, "Makes me glad that I didn't take tracking as a learn slot, right now."

Kitty claims, "I've said stuff on the forums about it."

Sparkles muses, "At that point, what's the functional purpose of the skill then besides hunting?"

Naomi questions, "Is that already in place, or an intended thing?"

Tasker states, "I think it was a bit of a mistake stopping it in cities, personally. "

Kitty claims, "But, there are several reasons it shouldn't be impossible. As Lans mentioned - snow, mud, dirt - tons of stuff."

Raspberries says, "That is a pretty huge nerf. I didn't realize it was a bug to begin with, and always thought it was a bit too powerful"

Jiraiya says, "I will say a lost a char to having my hooves tracked in the city and I am not happy about it."

Kitty says, "Harder, maybe, but not impossible."

Tasker claims, "It's incredibly useful skill, but now it's rendered quite a lot less useful. "
Raspberries nods.

Brando claims, "Tracking in city streets is VITAL to finding out who did what from a legal and orderite point of view. please do NOT change it."

Temi claims, "That terrain type wasn't supposed to work for tracking, but it had"

Quartz states, "Tracking is too abusable at higher levels. The city is HUGE and well populated. it shouldnt be able to track someone from one end to the other, considering vnpcs"

Jiraiya nods to quartz

Temi says, "Niamh fixed it, and now we're hearing the concerns about it"

Naomi claims, "Tracking in a city should be much much harder if not impossible due to foot traffic."

Jiraiya states, "I was tracked literally across the whole grid."

Kitty says, "I think because no one knew there was anything to be 'fixed'."
Temi nods at Kitty.
Raspberries nods at Naomi.

Kuzco says, "Moving around with a certain spell that leaves unnatural tracks is generally very risky."

Jiraiya claims, "Yah if I had known I'd hav easked for my PK to be invalidated."

Temi says, "And staff weren't aware it was working to say that it shouldn't"

Venamelia muses, "Is magic talk over? On to tracking now, if I see this right? And I think that odd tacks should still be findable. People tracks I get, but not odd ones?"

Sparkles states, "People tend to ignore vnpcs when it suits then but then bring them up when they want them to be in their favor. Because I could see vnpcs working for and against this."
Temi nods at Venamelia.

Wight states, "Yeah I think it was probably too strong before. But I do think there should be some ability to track in the city."

Quartz states, "I was as well, jir"

Kuzco says, "I agree that given the low pop we have at certain times of days"

Yinadele muses, "Isn't the example of a plot to like, try to track someone in a city in terms of investment?"

Kuzco says, "... it's possible to track someone from one gate to the opposite one"

Wight states, "Plot can be pretty delayed though."

Yinadele queries, "Isn't that what should be used to find people hiding in cities?"

Tasker muses, "Yeah, you should be able to do it, but maybe not all the time- or maybe it just lowers your skill to a lower level in the city so you can't find out ALL the information?"

Temi claims, "I'd personally think maybe it should be like a 25 percent chance to leave any sort of tracks on any given street room, and that they should be much fainter to startw ith"

Temi says, "But I don't know how easy that sort of thing would be to do"

Yinadele states, "Yeah, but so can questioning people to find one person in city streets and crowds."

Kitty says, "Plots take a long time - even if it's a day or two, it's not something that can be done in real time. Someone murders someone else, it's reported, can't track them to see which way they went now."

Raspberries says, "That would seem fair to me, Temi"

Pepper says, "One really big issue is, people have a super big investment in tracking as it was, and I feel like if its usefulness is cut by 60-80 percent (as it really has been), that's a concern."

Kuzco claims, "Like Lans said, raise the threshold, or make the track list be limited to a number lower than 10."

Sparkles claims, "Also maybe more things could factor into whether or not you leave tracks."

Kitty muses, "I'd argue wilderness should be hard, too. Does weather, currently, wipe out tracks?"

Raspberries claims, "I know some RPA has been done in real time in the past."

Pepper states, "I think having ways to mitigate leaving tracks is a good step. Give it counterplay."

Kitty states, "But, it depends on a staff member being available."

Kuzco states, "Only rain, time, and crashes wipe out tracks"

Sparkles claims, "That vastly depends on staff availability though, Raspberries, and is no guarantee."

Pepper claims, "Covering tracks is good, but prevention in a way you can control (by moving slowly for instance) would be nice."

Kuzco claims, "Tracks can also be covered"

Raspberries asks, "Do crashes/reboots still wipe out tracks? thought that was fixed"

Quartz states, "Honestly, i was tracked to a location, in a very uncommon part of the grid, and it should have only been one set of tracks. "

Brando says, "Hang on .. tracking is supposed to be very powerful at high levels. grandmaster tracker could track the wind itself IMO . there is the tracking skill of covering your tracks. please use it as required."

Quartz states, "Track cover is useless"

Temi claims, "Probably depends on the crash"

Kuzco states, "Save for night time, all staff are often AFK during the day"
Truth is idle.
Truth is no longer idle.

Quartz says, "It takes wayyy too long and uses too much mv to be useless"

Kuzco claims, "You can also use rivers, fly, switch mounts, or use a carriage"

Kitty states, "I mean, the idea to have sneaking leave more faint tracks or none at all was denied, even if the person was moving more carefully. So, I don't understand why this one is so much the opposite way - they're gone completely."

Raspberries says, "Track cover really doesn't work very well"

Kuzco says, "If you arent' a filthy peasant"

Pepper claims, "'covering your tracks' is something you do after the fact, though. You can prevent leaving tracks in the first place, theoretically - but we have no option but stomping through and leaving stains everywhere."

Wight says, "Yeah my experience with cover is that it was pretty unreliable"

Kuzco claims, "I thought track cover is broken, come to think of it"

Pepper states, "Besides, you have to cover multiple tracks not to show that you were... covering tracks. And therefore doing something shady."

Kitty says, "Cover makes them fainter."

Kitty says, "Go away faster."

Quartz exclaims, "I have to go back to work. I left a topic with Temi. Be well all!"

Kuzco claims, "So yeah, I Can't recommend anyone taking tracking again unless you RP in the wild a lot"

Brando says, "Be well Quartz."

Raspberries claims, "Track really isn't a very good PvE skill"

Venamelia asks, "Honestly, when I first started and used the track command for a first time, I was surprised that tracks were even visible within the city. It should be what? Ten thousand people, I believe?"
Temi nods.

Kuzco says, "The same could be said of many, many game applications"

Kitty claims, "That doesn't mean all ten thousand people are in that one place, or walk through that one area."

Raspberries says, "NPCs don't move around much, so rather worthless for hunters and such"

Truth says, "It never occurred to me how powerful tracking was until it was removed in cities. So I'm okay with the fix."

Jiraiya says, "Could we engineer so tracking past say 3 rooms in the city was basically impossible? even for hooves?

Jiraiya says, "Could we engineer so tracking past say 3 rooms in the city was basically impossible? even for hooves?

Jiraiya claims, "Oops"

Kuzco trails off, "Like if we're gonna apply the full brunt of vNPCs for everything... conversation in the Queen's should be next to impossible for instance"

Sparkles queries, "And at that point, why aren't they more active in the economy?"

Kuzco claims, "And casting magic in the open would be something nearly no one would dare to do, even if knight PCs are offline"

Temi says, "Well, I'll put it on the list for staff to discuss ways that we can mitigate the impact of tracking. It was waaaay too powerful before though"

Kitty states, "This is true. Can't sell to vNPCs."

Truth says, "This seems like a slippery slope."

Temi says, "So please don't get your hopes up that it will come back as is"

Pepper trails off, "I feel like there's a slippery slope argument being made here..."
Kuzco nods.

Pepper says, "Jinx."

Raspberries claims, "I think you can sell to NPCs with RPA"
Kuzco states to Temi, "I think there's consensus that it was too powerful before, but this change is too radical and nerfing."

Kitty states, "I don't think anyone is saying to bring it back as-is. Most have agreed it should be harder, but not impossible. Those who are loving it is no longer possible, likely have a... reason. Maybe."

Jiraiya nods to Kuz
Raspberries nods at Kuzco.
Temi nods.

Temi claims, "Okay, putting it on the list."

Pepper states, "My entire conclusion is that tracking should be strong but have ways to fight it. Before, it was strong with almost no way to really stop it."

Brando nods at kitty

Temi queries, "ToffeeApples, you had a topic?"

Raspberries claims, "I think it is a pretty big boon to brotherhood types as well"

Raspberries says, "Whose job has always been pretty tough"

Raspberries states, "Especially now that the sewers have aggresive mobs again"

Sparkles claims, "I think there's a lot of discounting of thought and planning here as a solution to various things."

Kuzco claims, "And remember, mages have many ways to avoid leaving tracks, and humans can jump roofs or use the sewers, or navigate the Bren"

Raspberries queries, "How do you mean, Sparkles?"

Jiraiya states, "Having more "waterplay" in our grid would be nice (like a lake with islands on it). would bring back the old days of finding mages with eggs and resolve some track issues"

Sparkles states, "People have successfully done a lot of things despite tracking being the way it was too my knowledge the entire time I've played, so I think people arguing it's made various things too hard or impossible is ignoring that people can and have done things despite it."

Temi muses to ToffeeApples, "You had a topic?"

ToffeeApples says, "I am not the only player who has failed to make any meaningful inroads in the Roland plot. That a number of players individually and in cooperation have not been able to alter this plot should raise alarm. For all intents and purposes, this storyline appears to be on rails. Also, not only was Ianthe arrested, she was tried, convicted, sentenced, and executed all in one single plot outcome without opportunity for her respond, to request amnesty, or write letters to Seneschal or Justiciar, who may have swayed things back in her favor."

ToffeeApples says, "I was given no opportunity to plead her case or otherwise engage with the story save for writing her own death post (which I declined.) That is the staff equivalent of a closed emote. And because I was being 'burdensome' to staff by using the game's only system to engage with their story off grid, my character was summarily disposed of. Players should be afforded greater fairness and transparency when they put their character's fate in the hands of staff. "

Kuzco asks, "What do you believe would be an example of greater fairness and transparency? Roll number disclosure for instance?"

ToffeeApples states, "That primarily, yes"

Kuzco states, "Hmm. Let me think. Where you given a clear forewarning of the likely outcome and consequences of your assassination attempt plot? It does sound like failure would have meant a dire situation."

Raspberries says, "Perhaps for plots that put death on the table, something like 'help deadly' would be useful to refer to"

Kitty trails off, "It also feels like something that would have very low rate of success...."

Temi says, "I have already apologizes to Toffee that I did not include her in the rolls for the results. I was trying to get things handled and just reported the results to her, in detail."

Kuzco claims, "Alright."

Temi states, "At that point, rerolling was not feasible because the decision was already made and reported."

Jiraiya states, "I really don't see 1) why roland would execute a valuable hostage and 2) how he would manage to get away without his throat being slit"

Pepper claims, "... That feels like it should have been a much longer back-and-forth."

Jiraiya claims, "And i think revisiting is still feasible asit could have been disinformation"

Truth says, "Roland didn't do it. The Duchess did."

Raspberries claims, "It's not Roland who executed her, was the Duchess I think"

Kuzco states, "I feel like we as players shouldn't make assumptions on incomplete info. But I see Toffe's point."

Venamelia claims, "I don't want to be harsh, I loved Ianthe as a character, even if our interactions were not that many, but I do think it makes sense that it would lead to an execution. She was a guest, and even though a knight, it was an insult. Only question is if it fits the Duchess' personality."

Jiraiya claims, "Still dumb for the duchess"

Temi claims, "However, she did go into it knowing that there was a big risk."

Kitty says, "I am with Kuzco.. I don't think we should make assumptions when we don't know the whole story."
Venamelia nods.

Kitty states, "And, as it is recent, it is not a story that should be revealed."
Raspberries nods.

Pepper states, "Well, the thing about that is really that we only have what information we're given. If that information brings us to a bad outcome and makes us have a worse experience, it's on staff to control that flow of information to a positive result to some extent. People can't always be blamed for coming to negative conclusions."

Pepper says, "If the one player directly involved is unhappy, that encourages that perspective."

Kuzco says, "Though the capture->sentence->execution sounds like a bit too quick. For me."

Temi claims, "There was a real chance of success, and there was a chance of her not being executed even after being caught."

Kuzco says, "Oh, that's good to know."

Raspberries states, "Well, to be fair, anyone would be unhappy with the loss of their character. But with no risk, no reward and all of that"

Kitty claims, "Not necessarily. If the information is IC, and your character is not in the type of position to know, then whatever conclusions you might draw, it isn't the staff's responsibility to release IC info to people who wouldn't have it."

Sparkles questions, "Given someone ran a plot and successfully killed the Queen, was that also a risk in that scenario?"

Jiraiya claims, "The reward is ending a plot people I think are tired with though. Which is a problem."
Temi nods at Sparkles.

INFO: Japti has just created!

Temi says, "I think Niamh is still floored at the way the rolls panned out for Estella"

ToffeeApples claims, "I have my own doubts about what a 'real chance' entails. But regardless, the primary issue I have is the closed nature of it. She didn't die in the process, she died much later and wasn't given a chance to act at all in the middle."

Sparkles states, "I feel like sometimes there's a lot of confusion with plots knowing what is indeed being rolled against."

Yinadele says, "I think a big deal in both this, and the previous issue of tracking, is the inability for counterplay."

Pepper states, "That's understandable, and given lack of more information, I'll appreciate good faith and intent, but it sounds like most of it was decided in the background by invisible rolls which no one could respond to, which will never be satisfying."

Temi says, "But, that's where the rolls went. And I don't think it would have been fair to the risk taken to go back and change the risks reported."

Temi says, "Staff have already discussed and our plan is for players to be involved in any rolls which will have a lasting impact on their character, or we'll get an exception from Kin due to that being infeasible for whatever reason."

Kitty claims, "So, we've seen this rolls system obviously succeed (murder of the queen) and fail (execution of Ianthe). If it was the same system, we know that there are clear chances for both success and failure."

Temi states, "So, that's what we will be doing going forwards."
Raspberries nods.

Temi claims, "Again, my apologies to Ianthe that that was not the way that we did it, but I don't think it is fair to go back over it now. I can report the numbers we rolled, if that would help, as I saved them, but I don't really think that it would."

ToffeeApples claims, "It would have been different if she'd died in the process of the attack. But that she failed in that, failed to execute roland, failed to escape all in one plot is what concerns me, and then not given th opportunity at that point to attempt a defense/escape/plea."

Kuzco says, "Given she mentioned transparency, perhaps it would be a step in a satisfying direction"

Kuzco claims, "As this all involves subjective abstractions"

Yinadele claims, "I think it's just a transparency in the moment that matters to situations where the rolls of the dice are involved- Especially for players to be the one holding the dice, even if it doesn't actually change the outcome."

Kitty claims, "There are some situations that are just about impossible to escape from. That... sounds like one fo them."

Jiraiya states, "It would be nice if diplomatic efforts could have been made too. us in lithmore should have had a chance to intervene"

Temi says, "That was definitely an option in the tree that was possible."

Kuzco claims, "I imagine a bardic mission could have happened, but alas."

Truth states, "It seems like the issue the player has is that the rolls covered too much along the course of the plot. Maybe in the future staff can discuss breaks between rolls and their outcomes, where they apply, etc."

Venamelia states, "In my Crusader Kings 2 games, I tend to execute everyone involved in plots and do not follow the demand to leave them. Nobles do have the right to execute anyone at their court without trial, the IC law also states this, if I do not misremember."
Kuzco nods.

ToffeeApples questions, "I wasn't even made aware that that was an option in the tree.. And it shouldn't have been. I should have been asked, (Do you want to attempt to escape?) instead of that behaviour being foisted on my character"

Raspberries says, "Unlss she had immediate help inside of Vandago, I don't see there being much of a chance"

Temi states, "So, we'll be working on improving this process going forwards, and I'm sorry this didn't work out the way people wanted this time."

Sparkles says, "My input is that a lack of other people being able to give input on a situation like this can make those with IC authority feel a bit ... moot in that authority."

Venamelia states, "That I can agree with, there is a chance to escape from Ahlin as well, after all."

Raspberries states, "Escape from Ahalin requires outside help IIRC"

Kitty claims, "Yes."
Kuzco says to Temi, "Thanks for your volunteer work in any case."

Pepper claims, "Thank you for taking feedback into consideration. I feel that staff understands to some extent where this went wrong, and that's meaningful."

Temi says, "Okay. Let's move on to our next topic then."

Temi wonders, "Sparkles, you had something?"

Temi claims, "And I'm leaving things in Erika's hand for a few while I take a step aside for some RL stuff"
Raspberries waves to Temi.

Truth says OOCly, "Okay! :)"

Raspberries claims, "We're going overtime by the way"

Sparkles claims, "It was just a general link to the earlier topic about Where RP and the such, where sometimes I've felt like I've walked in on gatherings and there's a degree of resentment for something in a public space being interrupted and interferred with. So that general not knowing how to balance concern from folks about getting more public RP, with others seeming to be bothered when it happens."

Erika nods.

Kuzco claims, "Yeah you do that to me you're getting whipped"

Raspberries questions, "OOC hostility, IC, or both?"

Erika says, "We still have another one after this to talk about, things have been a little slow."

Tasker states, "If someone is in a public place and has WhereRP on, that's an invitation to come and join. If someone gets hot and bothered about that, they should have WhereRP off."
Raspberries nods.

Sparkles claims, "Sometimes it can feel a little like both, like people suddenly posing super, super slow etc."

Brando nods at tasker

Yinadele says, "I saw the one newbie who complained about not being able to find RP get 3 people over visnet at varying times offer to RP with them which... He declined, and I made the attempt to RP with him the next day as well."

Kuzco states, "This also includes the wilderness, the sewers, and the Abyss"

Truth claims, "Honestly, in that situation I just encourage people to go forwards anyway. Most people hate RPing with my character, but I still crash scenes regardless."

Yinadele claims, "Just want to put that out there, as someone who was on all day that day."
Kuzco states to Truth, "I'm sure you exaggerate"
Wight is no longer idle.
Wight has returned from AFK.

Truth states, "If you don't feel engaged, just leave the scene after a few poses if it's REALLY uncomfortable."
Erika queries to Sparkles, "Do you feel like that's an issue in general, or do you feel it could be a class issue?"

Kuzco nods at Yinadele.

Sparkles claims, "That's hard for me to say, because I only have my own experience to go with."

Kitty claims, "I think there's a balance. OOCly, they might be inviting others. ICly is a different story."

Kuzco claims, "It's not the same as having whererp on in your house"

Kitty claims, "The PLAYER may want to have others in there, the CHARACTER may not appreciate it."

Jiraiya has heard the same complaint as Sparkles

Kuzco says, "And a mage and their undead minions suddenly crashing"

Tasker peers

Venamelia states, "Yeah, I walked into a group as well where the feeling for the RP suddenly changed, but I have also experienced it when someone else joined and the mood, the feeling of the ongoings changed. People suddenly becoming cautious and careful."

Jiraiya says, "Just keep in mind new players may not understand the distinction kitty or knwo how to navigate things"

Erika states, "That's a bit of a difficult issue. Even if people understand the distinction, it might be rather destroying the fun."
Jiraiya nods at Erika.

Sparkles states, "I suppose it might be ... don't chose public rooms just for the RPXP bonus for things you'll be mad if people crash."

Kitty says, "You can't change your character completely because someone is cyan. You can warn them if they do something that will put them in danger, but conflict is just as much a part of the game as warm-friendly."

Truth states, "I've seen this come up a lot, and I think a lot of stuff stems from WHERERP being on by default."

Kuzco wants to whip y'all raw

Sparkles tries to settle down Kuzco.

Raspberries states, "You do have to be somewhat inviting to cyans and attempt to RP with them"
Kuzco states to Truth, "Yeah this change was because some people were whoinvis and whererp off all the time and impossible to intercept"

Jiraiya says, "I've got another topic actually for the end if we could. very quick one"
Erika nods.

Erika states, "Let's move it on to Margo's topic real quick? We're going quite a bit past time."
Raspberries nods.

Erika claims, "My submission is having more text for plants and animals, when tending/harvesting, because now it goes from little progress to harvestable with no in between. even if it is just a half way done text."

Kuzco claims, "Agreed"

Brando nods

Kitty also agrees.

Raspberries says, "I think that was only half-implemented"

Raspberries states, "Never finished"

Erika muses, "So generally agreed, showing more steps in between?"
Raspberries nods.
Venamelia nods.

Kuzco states, "Maybe just one"
Erika nods.

Kuzco claims, "Plant is progressing nicely"
Erika queries to Jiraiya, "You had a topic?"

Raspberries says, "I'd like to see 5 stesp, especially for thing like horses which take an OOC month"

Kuzco claims, "Good point"

Kuzco claims, "Or avocados"

Kuzco claims, "Or slaves"
Raspberries nods.

Kuzco eyes warily.
Jiraiya nods at Erika.

Jiraiya claims, "Yes. it's WHAR PATREON"

Sparkles shuffles away from Kuzco.

Kuzco asks, "?"

Raspberries muses, "??"

Truth questions, "You want the game to have a Patreon?"
Jiraiya nods.
Erika queries to Jiraiya, "Mind elaborating?"

Venamelia says, "Questionmark"
Erika nods.

Raspberries asks, "I think there's a paypal?"

Truth claims, "I think there's a donation page on the website."

Jiraiya says, "If someone sets up a patreon i will contribute. paypal won't let you do monthly donations"

Jiraiya states, "Kinky and i have tried"

Raspberries states, "Hm"

Pepper states, "Patreon ensures more regular donations."

Sparkles says, "You can donate monthly with Paypal, I could investigate how I've seen other games do it."

Raspberries claims, "Sounds like a Kin question"

Jiraiya claims, "I've tried Sparkles."

Erika says, "There should be a donation link on the website. But having a method for recurring payments, I think paypal lets you do that as well with some changes. Would have to look into any more popular methods. But we can add that to the staff meeting."
Jiraiya claims to Erika, "Please."
Erika nods.

Erika questions, "Sorry again for keeping you all here! Ready to go back? :)"

Pepper declares, "Patreon is a more streamlined platform for that particular thing - it's based around recurring monthly donations. It's the platform!"

Kuzco says, "Can't say not to taht"

Raspberries exclaims, "All good!"

Pepper exclaims, "Yep!"
Venamelia nods.

Tasker says, "Can i pay in pirate coins"

Truth claims, "Arrrrrr"

Kuzco states, "Ready to go back -- as long as people remember to post reviews at https://www.reddit.com/r/MUD/"

User avatar
Kinaed
Posts: 1924
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:54 pm
Discord Handle: ParaVox3#7579

Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:01 pm

Just a few quick notes about this OOC Chat as there was a lot of ground covered:

1) I've reviewed this log and have updated Staff Talking Points:
-- Track cover isn't working
-- We are waiting for more commentary on the Track forum post before making decisions, but acknowledge several good points raised
-- I've set up a Staff request to update the player map - note that Staff are happy to supply QP to any player who updates the map or provides an updated map to the one here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=994
2) I acknowledge that Ianthe has some reason to be disgruntled with not being involved in backend dice rolls as they were made for her plot. As Temi stated, we commit to making players involved in dice rolls in the future wherever possible. The rest struck me as hyperbole with no upside to arguing about for anyone involved. We can't really prove or disprove staff intent, and people tend to get a bit rigid in their opinions as to why staff do things or are the way they are that are next to impossible for us to budge, so we simply won't prolong or exacerbate the debate by arguing about it.
3) Please note that, based on how plots progress in workflow, the natural view of staff (and presumably players requesting them) is to resolve a plot request as a single unit in its entirety. This may be a poor way of looking at things when players plot big scope objectives like 'overthrow the government'. This probably bears further discussion, however given the timing and emotions involved, it may be something to let go for now. If someone wishes to pursue the question, I'm happy to see discussion proceed, but I do ask that people participate sans accusations and interpretations of other people's intent.
4) I've heard something about a new player who paradoxically asks for RP then snubs it, but I have no idea who they are or about the specific instances. I'll touch base with some players to follow that up and see if anything further is required from staff, but encourage players to use the Ignore command.
5) With regards to people making someone who ICly enters a public scene where people had whereRP on, then is treated badly - I don't personally think the OOC/IC divide is a good excuse for making people feel bad for following the 'WhereRP is an invitation' game guideline. To me, it's like the proverbial 'my guy' argument during Tabletop - this is a game with powerful social elements, so let's try to make it fun for everyone involved.
6) It's gratifying that people wish to support TI, so thank you. I've added the requested Patreon here: https://www.patreon.com/TheInquisitionLegacy

If I missed anything, my apologies. Please reach out and let me know in-game if so.

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