Death XP and New Players

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Geras
Posts: 737
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:50 pm

Thu May 10, 2018 6:30 pm

As it is, we know that people have to make choices in chargen, and that is intentional.
Those choices shouldn't totally gimp a new player that makes the wrong one due to a lack of understanding and information. It's in the interests of the game to be accessible in this regard. I mentioned in another thread that being intimidated by the asset system is what kept me from returning to the game for quite a while too (at which point Niamh reached out and helped me through it, which is why I'm back). This is a real issue.
Regarding guilds doing stuff for their members, making loans, etc - I'm not sure how policy would be invoked or be an issue. I'd think those things could or would play out as they could/would in real life.
Players dissappear in a way that doesn't happen in real life though. Collecting on loans to players that disappear is something that could use some code/policy support and is probably worthy of its own thread.

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Voxumo
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Thu May 10, 2018 6:40 pm

Tell me something, what has changed with assets and new players from our old purchase silver command? I don't see a change at all truthfully. In chargen you used to be able to purchase 1000 silver for 4000 xp. Any player was having to make the same choices they are having to make now. Do I go for alot of skills and little money, or lots of money and little skills. Nothing has really changed on that front other than purchasing an asset being a tad more difficult than just typing silver purchase amount
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Taunya
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Thu May 10, 2018 6:41 pm

Kuzco wrote:75s per member? Tier 2 assets?
Maybe you don't quite grasp the income per week that some guilds have xD
Didn't say that's what every GL should do, just that it's what I would do. ;)
And if you do decide to set a wage, and the guild can't support it sometime, hey that could be a fun line of RP.
Kinaed wrote:Note: I never said that the guilds should step in as a solution to this perceived 'problem', rather, I pointed out that they can generally *afford* to do so. In particular, guilds get more silver per every active member, based on their relative City Metric, so if your guild keeps your metric above 75, then yeah, the guild can give out 75 silver per week, because that's what the guild earns just for having an active representative in game.
This brings to mind though, could the silver guilds get paid for active members be adjusted to the same scale that tier 1 assets do? that is, instead of 0-100, make it 50-100, with the metric at 50 paying out 75? It could help some of the routinely poor guilds get some income, like thieves, who have to fight pretty much the entire population for their metric.

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Kinaed
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Thu May 10, 2018 7:21 pm

The choices, as Voxumo pointed out, don't gimp anyone mathematically any more than they used to. If anything, we maintained the status quo on asset build.

As for new players making decisions that don't suit them, that's why they can re-enter chargen to restructure or reroll their character.

quanin
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:19 am

Thu May 10, 2018 8:02 pm

As one of those older players who's recently returned, though not one who's been around long enough to amass 45 bazillion XP, I'm in full agreement with Kinaed. When I played before, the asset system didn't exist. Granted I also never used purchase silver, and at the time roster assets were free (perhaps that could be addressed, Kinaed?), my characters did well enough for themselves when they were about. Of course at the time the concept I had in mind for them didn't require I stockpile silver, but that was just me. I don't notice it being any harder to get into the game now than I did then.

If anything, the introduction of the asset system benefits newer players now more than the old system did, as unless you happened to come back during the time when you could pick up assets for free while the system was rolling out, you went from whatever your weekly class income was plus whatever other income you had--be it from a roster spot or something else--to a flat 0. Admittedly that was part of the reason I decided to liquidate my older characters--the other part being it'd been an age since they were active in RP.

My only suggestion would be for staff to possibly consider making roster assets free to obtain, as they were when you required staff intervention to be set up. As a newbie to TI, my first ever character did not join a guild, but instead took up a roster spot. In doing so, it allowed me to still get in some quality RP, learn how the game works, generate XP, and still have an income to rely on. Obviously if you want to DIY, then put up the XP and live with the result, but then that's your choice entirely. And if a newer player wants to do that, they've hopefully read the relevant info and are aware there's a cost to it. If they're still fine with proceeding down the path of DIY, I see no reason to stop them... but I see no reason to juice up the starter XP either.

As for the choice of assets versus skills, again I'm going to disagree here. If you have an income coming to you, then you have the ability to pay someone to teach you ICly whichever skill(s) you're interested in learning (translation: more rP for you). The XP from that RP would offset the XP you're spending on gaining the skill, and there's even a little something in it for the one doing the teaching--everyone wins.

TL;DR: I see no reason to implement a code/policy fix for something that 1: is entirely the player's choice and 2: is easily handled by existing methods, both IC and coded.

Temi
Posts: 318
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Thu May 10, 2018 8:09 pm

quanin wrote:My only suggestion would be for staff to possibly consider making roster assets free to obtain, as they were when you required staff intervention to be set up.
These are still free - the only cost is that it takes up an asset slot. So as a freeman, you can still get your free asset and then take a roster asset and be out no xp at all. They use the asset roster command instead of asset market, etc. If these are charging money or xp to get set-up, that is new and a bug. Please report it! I think it's fine though.

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Rothgar
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Thu May 10, 2018 11:30 pm

Allow me to preface this by saying that I'm not smart enough to come up with a concrete solution to any problem listed here, and I'm not going to pretend that I am. This is just my input to the OP suggestion, which was giving EXP bonuses to newbies.

My initial thought is that I enjoy seeing a bonus for newbies. TI:L is one of the very few MUD's that I've seen that has both permadeath and account bonuses. Basically, for older players, we're all getting to NG+ with all of our experience (literally OOC'ly and IC'ly), while the rest of the community is having to start from level 1. That there are people in here arguing that there's little to no disparity between old and new accounts kind of baffles me.

My concern is that - especially with actual newer players - the death of a character means that they're not only experiencing the loss of what is undoubtedly an enormous amount of OOC investment, but they're also experiencing a loss of what to do next. To put it in perspective, I've been playing about 6-ish years. I've got roughly 11 times the amount of XP that a true beginner would. I've got hundreds of QP to raise skills up for any new character I make. I certainly appreciate it, as it makes the loss of characters much easier for me, but I'd absolutely understand if a newbie told me that wasn't fair in the least, and s/he wasn't going to play anymore because there'd be no point when they're up against my juggernaut of a character that can do literally anything and everything right out of character generation.

For those of you talking about XP sinks, I would be remiss in my duties if I didn't remind everyone that a character with max stats and a few mastered skills costs anywhere from 400-600,000 XP. Considering that you start with 40,000, I'd say that earning the remaining 400,000 is tough for pretty much everyone that hasn't played for years on end.
Rothgar Astartes, Fyurii Rynnya, Nils 'Smith' Mattias, Edward Darson, Curos Arents.

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Voxumo
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Thu May 10, 2018 11:47 pm

Can we take a second to acknowledge every "Veteran" player isn't the same. Yes there are many who describe themselves as sitting upon mountains of xp and qp... But that isn't every veteran player. The most QP I've ever had at one time was about 100, and that was from writing a lengthy ic book. The most xp I've had at a single time is around 300,000, and that was from Rhea, who I spent two years playing and had gained a decent death xp percentage. Remember, how much people recommend you, along with the type of character you play factors into how much return you receive upon the death of a character.

The point I'm trying to make some people hoard xp and qp, others don't. Frankly I find this whole discussion to be somewhat ridiculous, because as Kinaed pointed out... doesn't seem to me any actual newbies are bringing their voice up on the topic. It's alot of players who have been on here for sometime.

Also I'll admit I am biased here, as I strongly believe whatever benefits a "Veteran" players earns or has comes with the fact they've stuck around. They should have benefits that a brand new player doesn't necessarily. That is the reward for investing time into a game, be it a "Physical" bonus such as xp or qp, or merely experience that lends to creating better characters that provide a better return. If we keep trying shorten this invisible gap between old and new players, eventually there be will nothing to differentiate between the two.
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wimple
Posts: 130
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:53 am

Fri May 11, 2018 5:11 am

Maybe I'm missing where the complaint from the player that was mentioned in the start of this thread came from, but I read the OOC meeting log and I don't see it in there. I think Steven or someone mentioned assets, but it looked like it was during the domain discussion. So the only thing I can think of is the general board note that mentioned a player complaint that was specific to death XP leading to better stats and training from NPC combat trainers, but that seems to have nothing to do with this discussion.

I'm not sure I follow the complaint about assets. I don't much care for assets or the system myself, but know there are people that get into that sort of thing for their RP so don't mind it. All that said, when I returned and was sent back to chargen to get my assets, I fudged things up and wound up with two tier 1s instead of a tier 1 and a tier 2. They are also inverses of each other, which was probably dumb, but it always equals out so I get a steady $$ supply. That said, if I only have one, I'd still have historically been bringing in 30-50 silver a week no matter what, just for being me. Not a lot, but enough to get by, and it does NOT account for all the money someone makes with side-hustles. I probably make the same from my two tier 1s that I make from wheels and deals I make IC on the same basis.

I guess I fail to see the problem with making low amounts from assets if there are other ways to get coin as well if players do not want to struggle for money. Rather than fixing the asset system, I think what Kin is suggesting with guild funds is reasonable. If you think it is an issue and your guild is sitting on massive funds, start paying your people more, either routinely, or come up for special tasks and projects they can do for coin. It gives new characters tasks and RP objectives and money, win/win.

LonelyNeptune
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:02 pm

Wed May 16, 2018 1:47 am

Voxumo wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 6:40 pm
Tell me something, what has changed with assets and new players from our old purchase silver command?
You used to be able to purchase silver at any time when you earned the XP to do so. Now you must purchase assets in chargen or be pretty much screwed forever. New players are in a position where it's more difficult to pay XP for something upfront as opposed to buying it at any time. They are also in a position where they don't have the meta knowledge that buying assets over skills is advantageous. Brand new players are much more likely to skip buying assets altogether simply because POLCA is so alien and new.

The change has absolutely swung in the favour of more experienced players.

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