Jail Automation Requirements

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Voxumo
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Tue Feb 02, 2016 1:18 am

Applesauce wrote:
Annalesa wrote: Like, if I have a mage that is publicly there, and there is no knight on, what do I do? As a Reeve, do I just let that person go?
It's certainly reasonable from a player perspective. Yes, codewise you could certainly take them in. But ICly Reeves are trained to take down criminals, and Knights are trained to take down mages. I don't think it's unreasonable RP to assume that, as a Reeve, you are simply not prepared to wrastle a witch at the moment and instead you'll just give whatever info you can to the next Knight you come across.

A lot of people have a strong desire to "win" scenes, but really it's not a failure if a Reeve can't bring in a mage or a Knight can't/won't/doesn't bother with "petty" crime.
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Dice
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Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:39 am

Let me strongly agree with Applesauce here. From my perspective, yeah, if somebody is actively throwing around fire and a Reeve arrests them, that's fine, that's understandable. But it's equally fine and understandable if they don't. Ditto for facing off with demons. But it's NOT okay for an Inquisitor or Reeve to arrest a warranted mage who isn't posing a current and serious threat, or otherwise really instigate a confrontation. That, to me, is when you start crossing boundaries you shouldn't cross. Same thing goes for criminals, with probably the caveat that as a Knight I wouldn't really interfere in anything but assault/murder. If you catch them red-handed, stepping in is justifiable but in no way required; if you just see somebody you know is warranted, send for the right people and bide your time.

Geras
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Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:01 pm

I'd add some caveats depending on the case. I think it would be appropriate for Knights to consider stepping in for a particularly infamous murderer. I don't think the situation is symmetrical with respect to the Reeves though - the Knights have a bit of a secular role in maintaining order as a military organization, whereas Reeves have no religious role whatsoever. I don't think Knights should give two craps about a burglar though.

Applesauce
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Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:26 pm

Geras wrote:I'd add some caveats depending on the case. I think it would be appropriate for Knights to consider stepping in for a particularly infamous murderer. I don't think the situation is symmetrical with respect to the Reeves though - the Knights have a bit of a secular role in maintaining order as a military organization, whereas Reeves have no religious role whatsoever. I don't think Knights should give two craps about a burglar though.
Murderers, sure. But even that should really be a last resort, and if they're not literally caught standing atop the bloody victim then IMO the Knight could still message/mail a Reeve without it being considered a failure of duty.

As you say, the Knights are the military. I would be surprised if an on-duty soldier would chase down and arrest a secular criminal unless the Reeves explicitly call for help at the time, OR it's a state of emergency. Like if there's a serial killer and everyone knows 100% it was Jack who did it, then maybe a soldier might recognize Jack and bring him in instead of risking additional lives by waiting for the Reeves. But if it's just any kinda warrant, even a murder warrant but the Knight is not intimately familiar with the details of the case? IMO that becomes a "player winning the game" thing rather than characters acting within their stations.

Just my opinion, of course, and if someone is specifically playing the sort of movie FBI role of "Who's running this case? NOT ANYMORE YOU'RE NOT" then go 'head and do your thing.

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Taunya
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Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:10 am

*bump*

So, having some experience in Ahalin now, I really look forward to this type of system to help keep things moving and prevent people being stuck there for an extended amount of time, and I hope it gets some priority soon.

As it stands now, Ahalin feels a lot more like an OOC punishment than an IC one:
  • There's severely limited chances to RP - There just aren't that many Reeves/Orderites, and it's difficult for others to visit, or even know to, or how to visit. There's a grate you can yell through, but it yields no RPXP, and you can't even see your visitor.
  • There's very little to do - all of your equipment and items are usually taken, so you can't craft or work on most skills in your downtime.
I thought committing a crime without much cover-up would be fun to stir up some RP for the Reeves, as most of their leads that I hear about reach dead-ends, which I find kind of disappointing. I do love the RP my crime generated for them and others, but on my end it's not an experience I would want to repeat until the system gets some looking at. If I'd known it'd mean around an OOC month of downtime, I'd not have done it at all.

I think it likewise discourages others from committing crimes, and could be why most criminal characters go overboard covering their tracks even for simple smash and grabs, more often than not leaving the dead ends Reeves usually get. There's almost no pickpocketing or simple muggings at all due to this risk aversion, since you can't as easily cover up crimes done in person. Though pkill policy's cnote exemption if you catch someone stealing from you could have something to do with that as well.
Kinaed wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:13 pm
- Investigations have to be concluded before people are apprehended. No
people being kept in jail for the time it takes to build a case against
them, if there isn't enough to sentence, they shouldn't be arrested.

- Maximum applicable jail time. Whatever is thought reasonable, although I
think that barring exceptional circumstances (where people genuinely
cannot get together or someone is away); this should not exceed 10 days

No gaoling for non-pyreable/executable offenses. Easy; if all the needed
proof for an arrest is there, lashes/branding/limb removal/etc. Should
happen live and the person can be released right away. This may be a way
to get our petty criminal count up. If they're not looking down at lengthy
imprisonment, people will probably be more inclined to take a chance.
I like a lot of these points, though suspects being brought in by warrant to be questioned and searched might be good, if they're released immediately after the search/interrogation scene.

10 days seems fair as a maximum, but if not likely to be a danger to others, maybe fewer days. Bail could be more of a thing, so people can be free to RP until the punishment can be dealt. Perhaps some system to discourage running from punishment when out on bail could be thought up, without outright restricting that option.

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Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:54 am

There was also the suggestion to change some of the build or set up to jail or just the mentality to allow things like Troubadours to act as ombudsmen or let Physicians visit to give people more RP. I'm not sure in the end how much traction that gained. While I feel like some automation of jailing could potentially help, it doesn't entirely remove the human factor. To my understanding in the latest case of this, there was some attempt to try something to get people out of the jail cell. I'm not sure if that was seen as a successful attempt or not by folks involved.
No gaoling for non-pyreable/executable offenses. Easy; if all the needed proof for an arrest is there, lashes/branding/limb removal/etc.
The difficulty that happens is sometimes it happens that at the time someone could be or is arrested, they don't always have the time to RP a full scene (and invite others as public punishments like to bring a crowd). So if the policy became no jail in the meantime, would that be an IC agreement to deal with an OOC issue? Would you be able to request RPA with staff to do punishments off-grid?

There was a thought about making more permanent punishments have a hard coded aspect. As losing say an arm should likely affect things like combat ability, max stats, and carrying capacity. And the last OOC Meeting sort of highlighted how combat code acts as the natural mediator to what might otherwise be highly debated situations, hoping all folks involved in a scene have the same understanding of what the limitations should/might be is likely to cause trouble.

Starstarfish
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Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:03 am

Investigations have to be concluded before people are apprehended. No people being kept in jail for the time it takes to build a case against them, if there isn't enough to sentence, they shouldn't be arrested.
From my experience at times, a factor you can't fully account for is the availability of other people to be available for RP. And sometimes the building a case aspect relies on RPA and/or plot answers.

And if a suspect cannot be arrested until evidence is found, but they are free to be destroying said evidence while you look for it, then ... IRL this is why you can have enough evidence to get a warrant to arrest them. I think instead it should be if you have something solid enough that the Order or Reeve GLs are willing to sign off on it, you have X amount of time to arrest someone, have them in jail, and collect evidence or you must release someone. But IMHO getting away with a crime should require slightly more pre-planning/forethought than "and then I junked everything."

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Buzz K[ir]ill
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Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:49 pm

Do we not have a helpfile listing other possible thematic punishments, and if not, can we get one? I think it could go a long way for the entire pbase to know what's thematically possible. E.g...

* Stocks - Used to punish lesser crimes, such as X. The criminal is placed in the stocks at X. It is common for passersby to fling rotten fruit or manure at the offender.
* Public whipping - X lashes is considered typical for minor crimes, X for more severe.
* Removal of a finger or hand - Finger for small crimes, entire hand for serious crimes, especially repeated thievery.
* And others, such as removal of the hair/shaving the head, branding, being forced to wear some pin or article of clothing to signify shameful acts, public acknowledgement of vice and apology for it, etc. etc.

Might also help arresting types think of other creative ways to deal with crimes, especially on the spot. I see some good ideas here from two years ago, but if they're not in a helpfile new players can refer to...

Maybe add a caveat about it being a possible list or rough guideline, and that the actual punishment is decided by the authority handling the crime?

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