RANT: Theme, Nobility, Religion and Overall "scariness."

[cloverpocky]

Alright, let me preface this by saying that I'm an old grumpy codger waving my cane here.

Hi everyone, if you don't know me, I'm TBH Rosemaria. If you were at the Mage!ball, you witnessed the death of one of my oldest PCs, Florense. I have been around this MUD since about 2001. I have been through all incarnations of the MUD, including some of Burning Post, and never have I seen a better group of roleplayers or a more dynamic staff in another MUD anywhere. I consider this MUD my home, my base where I return to and I grew up here. So, even though I don't say it much, TI is actually really important to me, and I want to see good things happen for everyone involved in playing characters and creating stories.

Alright, that's enough niceness. ;) Let's assume that everything I'm going to say next is out of concern, and I'm making generalizations here so please don't think I'm attacking anyone or trying intentionally to piss people off.

I'm here to talk about theme. Yes, we all know we're in an Inquisitorial medieval theme where mages are real, but I'm gonna wave my cane here for a second and go into something that I'm not thrilled about.

This game isn't scary anymore. I am no longer legitimately terrified of the Church, nor scared of offending a noble for breathing incorrectly. Here's where I shake the cane. Back in my day, you could be flogged or put in the stocks for not showing proper respect for nobles or even gentry. Talking back to a noble or a priest was unheard of, and there was an absolute and real class divide that you didn't generally cross. People who reached over those borders were immediately ostracized by society. It used to be if someone mentioned a mage, you'd Chalice yourself immediately. There were church services and if you didn't attend you were SCREWED because someone was going to find out and you'd be hauled in for an Inquisition.

Those of you who know me will know that I am constantly pushing the boundaries of the game in one way or another. I have played bastard half-Charali nobility, two instances of a Daravi character and a handful of mages, and a crossdressing murderous maniac. I do this to create interest and conflict because I think a lot of the time the game lends itself to holing up with one or two other characters and never coming out of a single area. Florense intentionally pushed the boundaries of what it meant to be nobility, but what I'm trying to say is that Florense was an example of an EXTREMELY radical, liberal character that ordinarily would have been burned, ostracized or murdered in her sleep in older times.

There is a lot of really good conflict and RP going on, and it's the reason I keep coming back, but I feel like the MUD has gotten progressively more modern and I don't feel that's a Good Thing (TM). I feel like the class divide, the legitimate living in Terror of a corrupt Church - all of those things added conflict and interest to the MUD and I want our younger generation of new players to have the same kind of thrill and fear that I did when I first started.

I'm a believer in leading by example, so I'm going into the Regency Quest with a noble that I will hopefully play true to the older ways of the MUD's nobility to better illustrate my point.

Any thoughts? Let me know, I'm happy to chat on the MUD and I'm nearly always available on AIM. :)

-James.

[Nevermore]

Pardon my French, but I have yet to see a noble with a stick properly up their ass. I'm looking forward to see what you do with your noble, but as a new player I cannot really add to the discussion other than my first statement.

[Rothgar]

Imma just make an enormous post and quote the Hell out of this dude.

If you were at the Mage!ball, you witnessed the death of one of my oldest PCs, Florense.

Made me sad. That was fun, though.

This game isn't scary anymore. I am no longer legitimately terrified of the Church, nor scared of offending a noble for breathing incorrectly.

Agreed. And agreed. That being said, I'm no longer legitimately afraid of Mages, either... The only guild I even half-way respect is the Brotherhood.

Back in my day, you could be flogged or put in the stocks for not showing proper respect for nobles or even gentry.

>Flogged
>Put into the stocks
Hell to the yes. Both are excellent examples of generating RP without killing another character, and I have zero idea why we don't do this more.

Talking back to a noble or a priest was unheard of, and there was an absolute and real class divide that you didn't generally cross. People who reached over those borders were immediately ostracized by society.

Again, don't understand why we lost this. Hell, I remember when Rothgar was Grand Inquisitor, that shit would get you locked up in Ahalin for a day. Even though, code-wise, I can promise you that he didn't have nearly any combat skills, or members even in the Order, he was feared and respected. At least, to his face. ;D

It used to be if someone mentioned a mage, you'd Chalice yourself immediately.

Agreed. I admit that Rothgar doesn't do this, because he's murdered his fair share of mages, but... I have no legit excuse for the rest of my characters. It's something I need to see to. But it goes with my point above that I'm just not that afraid of mages anymore.

There were church services and if you didn't attend you were SCREWED because someone was going to find out and you'd be hauled in for an Inquisition.

That sounds awesome. I agree that the Inquisition -should- be interrogating more and more people - they've moved to this new-age mantra wherin everyone needs to be saved, rehabilitated, etc... On one hand, as a mage character, that's kinda cool? But I have zero fear of the Order any longer.

There is a lot of really good conflict and RP going on, and it's the reason I keep coming back, but I feel like the MUD has gotten progressively more modern and I don't feel that's a Good Thing (TM).

Agreed. Totally agreed. I'm constantly surprised by the sheer amount of people who just accept my characters homosexuality, godlessness, and general insanity in stride. I've made cannibal characters, mage characters, gay characters, and downright heretical characters who are just... Accepted. Out of the blue. In a bar talking about how you like to eat people? Alright, yeah. Sure. Whatever gets you off.

I'm a believer in leading by example, so I'm going into the Regency Quest with a noble that I will hopefully play true to the older ways of the MUD's nobility to better illustrate my point.

Sounds awesome dude. Can't wait to see how it goes. Looking forward to RP'ing with your character.

[Leech]

As far as the Church goes, generally I think the consensus is (based off of recent chat, and talking with Carmen) we want to move towards a nicer church to reinforce theme. The Church should not be inherently, and publicly corrupt. What's the point of that? We'd have too many people railing against it, and people don't need any help whatsoever doing that.

The whole idea of the Holy Order, and what makes it so interesting to me, is that it is a huge organization dedicated to doing charity and what they perceive as good. Burning mages is not corrupt - for these people it is a way of purification, and in a time where demons are very, very real, who are we to say they are wrong? The Inquisition theme has always been built off the idea of corrupt church vs magery, but that's just it - they tell you upfront about the church's corruption. They imply very heavily that Dav was mad.

Recently there's been a drive to get rid of these assumptions in help files, and Wolfie has done a wonderful job expanding our theme to characterize the time of Dav - though as of yet most of his writing has not been put in game.

In my ideal version of TI, you shouldn't fear the Church. You should fear mages. That, to me, is thematic.

On another note, Church masses have seen a sharp decline because people complain that they are boring and not fun. I don't know if I agree with that, but I would like to see masses - but only if they have a point. Like 'We are gathered here today to remember those who were lost on that one ship' or 'We are gathered here today to talk about chastity'. I believe that with a point you can generally open it up for more interaction - because let's face it, there are only so many emotes I can give saying 'listens quietly and respectfully to the preacher blabble on' before I lose my fucking mind.

----------------------

I've been playing the same noble character for nine months - he's moody, arrogant, and by his standards entirely better than you. In that time I've ICly beaten women, kicked peasants while they're down and sick (literally), hit the peasantry for perceived insults, order the Reeves (to varying degrees of success) to do my dirty work, and have never went to jail for any of it.

I don't think I've publicly flogged somebody, because a wise man once told me that scenes focused on one or two people aren't very exciting for a crowd. So I try to not do that.

The whole of that is to try and tell you: there are wretched nobles out there who use their nobility to terrorize the populace for their own advantage. Who guard their bloodlines jealousy, and Lord forbid you insult any of their ancestors or talk about their half-blood heritage.

The reason there aren't more is because it's a lonely life, and one that doesn't have much support by code. My noble is poor, has no way to back up the immense power he is supposed to have, and generally has no friends except the ones he bribes. Not many people want to play like that - and nor should they. A noble can be thematic just fine without ever flogging a person. A morally good noble is not an unthematic one - and if they don't flog a person for a perceived insult, perhaps they are going to get them back in another way, or have an IC reason they are thinking right now that excuses the action.

[Dice]

I'm going to be really incendiary here for a sec.

There is an irony in you guys, Florense and Rothgar, complaining about this:

You know I love both you guys, I think you're fantastic RPers, and I would love to only see more of you. But this is what you're basically complaining about: everybody does the same thing as you.

We do not have the theme as strict anymore because everybody plays characters to transgress it, and when everybody transgresses it, upholding it is miserable.

When 90% of PCs are not thematic, the remaining 10% cannot enforce anything.

We've got to be the change we want to see. For every character you play that transgresses social rules, play one that upholds them. Being a transgresser is fun and easy - being an upholder is a real challenge.

[cloverpocky]

Naw, Dice, you're not being incendiary at all. Part of the reason I nuked 3/4ths of my paccount is because I realized that this was happening and that I was part of the issue. Pot, kettle, etc.

You're absolutely right, playing strictly to theme is very difficult, which is traditionally why I've tended to avoid characters that stick to that set of rules. Personally, I'll be trying to stick more to theme, and if you notice any really glaring errors, I'd appreciate your feedback, as your characters are always really spot on.

We'll see what happens with Rosemaria and Keilani, and go from there then, yeah? :D

[Applesauce]

We do not have the theme as strict anymore because everybody plays characters to transgress it, and when everybody transgresses it, upholding it is miserable.

When 90% of PCs are not thematic, the remaining 10% cannot enforce anything.

We've got to be the change we want to see. For every character you play that transgresses social rules, play one that upholds them. Being a transgresser is fun and easy - being an upholder is a real challenge.

+1 a million times over.

When I started playing this incarnation of TI, I intended to be a by-any-means-necessary Inquisitor who delighted in the torture of mages and possible-but-maybe-not-mages. But given how against theme the general populace is, I found a more interesting niche in being a true believer and trying to figure out WHY the Order does what it does, WHY they think they're the good guys, and HOW they can possibly overcome the rampant heresy in Lithmore. So people say they want a big bad Order, but the real conflict is trying to see the church as the good guy on a game full of casual heretics. If I had to be "the bad guy" the way things are now, I'd be dragging people to the pyre non-stop and probably find myself murdered within a week.

As for punishments that let things be scary, I would absolutely love to find out the current Reeve regime intends to punish minor crimes with fines, jail time, stocks, or inflicts. At some point (either on this or a previous incarnation) everything became death or losing a limb. Even though those are "scarier" in terms of being more permanent, I think people stopped being afraid because they would just be bad until they're caught, then alt or rename.

[Dice]

As for punishments that let things be scary, I would absolutely love to find out the current Reeve regime intends to punish minor crimes with fines, jail time, stocks, or inflicts. At some point (either on this or a previous incarnation) everything became death or losing a limb. Even though those are "scarier" in terms of being more permanent, I think people stopped being afraid because they would just be bad until they're caught, then alt or rename.

As a current Reeve, I have only ever executed people for actual murder, and I think there's a strong understand we CANNOT execute people for anything else (except treason). The law files are written to make that really clear.

I would also consider execution for a repeat offender who's constantly attacking people, but generally people are good nowadays at going for minor punishments. We just don't CATCH people who are only guilty of minor things, for one reason or another.

[Applesauce]

I would also consider execution for a repeat offender who's constantly attacking people, but generally people are good nowadays at going for minor punishments. We just don't CATCH people who are only guilty of minor things, for one reason or another.

Awesome, thanks for confirming.

[Voxumo]

As for punishments that let things be scary, I would absolutely love to find out the current Reeve regime intends to punish minor crimes with fines, jail time, stocks, or inflicts. At some point (either on this or a previous incarnation) everything became death or losing a limb. Even though those are "scarier" in terms of being more permanent, I think people stopped being afraid because they would just be bad until they're caught, then alt or rename.

You know i haven't been playing for very long at all... Almost a year and a half now but i agree.. I miss the days when a character would lose a limb or something. Heck i had one of my characters almost lose a hand for disrespecting dagerian. But in the end the peeps involved felt it would be better for him to keep his hand so he could serve in the reeves..

I just feel the game has become far too lenient for my tastes.. Heck i have had 18 characters so far.. 13 of them mages who have likely been pyred and i am more than ok with that. But those who hold power in the game needs to use them. I mean it seems mages are no longer even feared which is really not thematic. Heck i had people laugh at my recent mage when he came out in shadow form, they downright laughed and i honestly had to think why i played a mage.

So yeah just adding my tiny bit