Petty crimes
So as some of you may know, the Brotherhood has taken a very very big fall recently. Currently it would be great if we could get people to get money and such but there's one problem with that. It seems to me that petty crimes (I.E. Stealing someone's purse) are way to risky. From my viewpoint it seems that the Reeves are willing to execute any BH members they come in contact with which is not good. What should happen is that if say you stole someone's purse than as a punishment rather than being executed or suspected for the rest of your life that if anything bad happens in the Brotherhood you did it when the only proof they have of you being Brotherhood in the first place is that you stole someone's purse rather than killing the Cardinal you be imprisoned for a bit, whipped, told not to, then let out. Quite simply from my viewpoint and little experience it seems that way, I could be wrong though. Reeve feedback especially would be nice.
(Wrote way more than I should have, but I'm in a fairly talkative mood, and I love thief discussions!)
Playing Casimir, who is meant to be an educated noble type, he assumed that anybody in Southside must have SOME ties to the Brotherhood. That's just a given. Is he going to go reporting every person begging on the street? No, because killing Southside off is just too much damn work. Better to let them starve.
The above isn't to show how my character works, per say, but show that suspicion is just inherent sometimes. It comes with the territory, so to speak. I don't want people to get down because they have suspicion cast on them - as a matter of fact I believe suspicion is a good thing. It lets other people in on your character's private life, and gives corrupt officials a foot in the door. Of course you never know who to trust...
That's the life of a thief though, right? I wouldn't want it any other way.
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Now, I'm not sure what meat and potatoes you're serving here. Are you pushing for easier steal checks, or for a culture where being a Brotherhood member isn't punishable by execution? I'll start with the latter, since it is an easier subject; From my experience, a lot of people are willing to cut you breaks. They might be absolutely positive that you're OOCly playing a thief, but they'll cut you breaks because you keep things interesting. Not kill the Cardinal interesting, but you show them Southside, you show them poverty, strife, ect. Whatever you want to show them, Kurt Vonnegut always counsels 'To hell with suspense, give the reader what they want.'
But there's a line you have to toe. You can't outright come forth with it as a Brohood member, because you will get deaded. However, in my experience there is nothing wrong with being suspected, and there are people who won't immediately execute you for stealing. You just have to find out how to swing it.
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Stealing: I would suggest twinking up your steal skill till over 50 before you actually plan to do anything with it, and even then don't pick targets like trained Reeves or the Lord Keeper (AKA people who you know probably have max wisdom stat). Emote well, and emote often. Emote distractions using RPecho. Also, realize that stealing doesn't have to be your main source of income. You can make plenty of coin conning people (a lot of people really love getting conned out of gold...), blackmailing, and racketeering.
Quite honestly, I only ever used stealing for mail. Little trick I picked up from Varys's character in Game of Thrones xD Mail is the only thing that really mattered - I could get gold from all sorts of other venues.
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In a perfect world, a thief character would build up their reputation, rise up in the Brotherhood, and start getting private contractors from interested parties (nobles, scorned lovers, ect). This isn't a perfect world though, and playing a thief you really have to make your own luck.
Playing Casimir, who is meant to be an educated noble type, he assumed that anybody in Southside must have SOME ties to the Brotherhood. That's just a given. Is he going to go reporting every person begging on the street? No, because killing Southside off is just too much damn work. Better to let them starve.
The above isn't to show how my character works, per say, but show that suspicion is just inherent sometimes. It comes with the territory, so to speak. I don't want people to get down because they have suspicion cast on them - as a matter of fact I believe suspicion is a good thing. It lets other people in on your character's private life, and gives corrupt officials a foot in the door. Of course you never know who to trust...
That's the life of a thief though, right? I wouldn't want it any other way.
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Now, I'm not sure what meat and potatoes you're serving here. Are you pushing for easier steal checks, or for a culture where being a Brotherhood member isn't punishable by execution? I'll start with the latter, since it is an easier subject; From my experience, a lot of people are willing to cut you breaks. They might be absolutely positive that you're OOCly playing a thief, but they'll cut you breaks because you keep things interesting. Not kill the Cardinal interesting, but you show them Southside, you show them poverty, strife, ect. Whatever you want to show them, Kurt Vonnegut always counsels 'To hell with suspense, give the reader what they want.'
But there's a line you have to toe. You can't outright come forth with it as a Brohood member, because you will get deaded. However, in my experience there is nothing wrong with being suspected, and there are people who won't immediately execute you for stealing. You just have to find out how to swing it.
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Stealing: I would suggest twinking up your steal skill till over 50 before you actually plan to do anything with it, and even then don't pick targets like trained Reeves or the Lord Keeper (AKA people who you know probably have max wisdom stat). Emote well, and emote often. Emote distractions using RPecho. Also, realize that stealing doesn't have to be your main source of income. You can make plenty of coin conning people (a lot of people really love getting conned out of gold...), blackmailing, and racketeering.
Quite honestly, I only ever used stealing for mail. Little trick I picked up from Varys's character in Game of Thrones xD Mail is the only thing that really mattered - I could get gold from all sorts of other venues.
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In a perfect world, a thief character would build up their reputation, rise up in the Brotherhood, and start getting private contractors from interested parties (nobles, scorned lovers, ect). This isn't a perfect world though, and playing a thief you really have to make your own luck.
Player of: Alexander ab Courtland
Oof, so much to respond to here so I'll start with the most easy response which I think is the middle paragraph.
I think that I am trying to more do both. Quite simply being Brotherhood itself isn't a capital offense it's what comes from being Brotherhood that gets people in trouble but from this most recent purge of the Brotherhood I got the impression they were planning to kill everyone. One person got off because of brown nosing to the right people, two escaped, and one is being branded from what I hear. Now I'm not opposed to two of the executions that would've happened because they were Sapiente and Tenebrae. Now again I don't know what Reeve plans were so I could be wrong but for all they knew the other two were just simple petty thieves that take a few silver every now and then. Now I'm not saying that people should just jump out saying "I'm Brotherhood." but they should be able to steal from people and if they get caught then they don't get killed they get lashed/branded etc. Quite simply I think that if someone is stealing they shouldn't be OOCly afraid that they'll get killed. People that steal a coin or two every now and then are little fish and little fish are only good for getting bigger fish, not for eating.
As for everything else, the tips are much appreciated. I'll make sure to use them in the future.
I think that I am trying to more do both. Quite simply being Brotherhood itself isn't a capital offense it's what comes from being Brotherhood that gets people in trouble but from this most recent purge of the Brotherhood I got the impression they were planning to kill everyone. One person got off because of brown nosing to the right people, two escaped, and one is being branded from what I hear. Now I'm not opposed to two of the executions that would've happened because they were Sapiente and Tenebrae. Now again I don't know what Reeve plans were so I could be wrong but for all they knew the other two were just simple petty thieves that take a few silver every now and then. Now I'm not saying that people should just jump out saying "I'm Brotherhood." but they should be able to steal from people and if they get caught then they don't get killed they get lashed/branded etc. Quite simply I think that if someone is stealing they shouldn't be OOCly afraid that they'll get killed. People that steal a coin or two every now and then are little fish and little fish are only good for getting bigger fish, not for eating.
As for everything else, the tips are much appreciated. I'll make sure to use them in the future.
I think this is an important issue, and it is one that we have tried to address before. This was the reason for help laws summary, at the request of both the Reeves who wanted to know what to do with people and the Criminals who want to know what they should expect for crimes.
That helpfile is:
I think it is important for players of criminals to know that they can be involved in crime without being legally killed for it. No one should be safe, but that general expectation makes a huge difference between people being willing to add that flavor to our world or not.
I have been disappointed that there hasn't been much use of the laws and punishments I went through to describe when this was desired before. The attempt was to get something with enough structure and flexibility for the Reeves to have broad reach to do as they like and interpret things, but also to encourage crime and criminals who want to continue providing RP for them and the game, without necessarily going so far as being murderers.
So, I guess my question would be... what is the current laws set-up lacking? Is there more that the staff can do to make it accessible and usable in creating a fun game for everyone? Why do the current Reeves like or not like it?
That helpfile is:
This means, if the Reeves are executing someone, they should be noting that the criminal is guilty of murder or treason. Murder does include attempted murder, at the judgement of the presiding Reeve, and there is plenty of flexibility in how they handle it. However, if the Reeve is executing someone for something else, the population at large should go 'What!?'. If they want to execute them anyway, I have absolutely no issue with framing them for some other murder they didn't actually commit - but make sure that is desc noted.The laws of Lithmore are necessarily imprecise to allow the Reeves to
handle criminal behavior where they see it and adapt to constantly changing
situations. Those wanting to know how certain situations would be handled
by the law should consult with the Reeves, who have discussed the necessary
interpretations for a variety of laws in more depth. However, the average
Lithmorran would be aware that there are laws against:
Theft - stealing or depriving another of their rightful due
Assault - attacking or injuring another
Murder* - the killing of another
Destruction - destroying property or objects
Disturbing the Peace - causing trouble or a scene or indecent behavior
Trespass - invading another's property
Espionage - spying on conversations or correspondences
Fraud - presenting oneself or circumstances as something they aren't,
including sumptuary
Abduction - kidnapping or unlawful imprisonment
Treason* - plotting or working against the crown
Criminal Involvement - aiding criminals or membership in criminal
organizations
Religious Crimes* - heresy, magery, enforced by the Inquisition rather
than the Reeves
Potentially capital offenses are marked with a *.
I think it is important for players of criminals to know that they can be involved in crime without being legally killed for it. No one should be safe, but that general expectation makes a huge difference between people being willing to add that flavor to our world or not.
I have been disappointed that there hasn't been much use of the laws and punishments I went through to describe when this was desired before. The attempt was to get something with enough structure and flexibility for the Reeves to have broad reach to do as they like and interpret things, but also to encourage crime and criminals who want to continue providing RP for them and the game, without necessarily going so far as being murderers.
So, I guess my question would be... what is the current laws set-up lacking? Is there more that the staff can do to make it accessible and usable in creating a fun game for everyone? Why do the current Reeves like or not like it?
It's time for this topic again. :)
Let me be the first to say this: the Brotherhood has consistently been given breaks upon breaks (and it's necessary and good to do that); and as several people who probably will post on this thread can attest, I've done them ICly. At times I'm also vetted to assist Brotherhood GLs via tells. I'm stating these bona fides only to place my comments into context, and because y'all know that I'm a Thief at heart.
Here are some important points:
1. If you're a petty thief, you're not getting executed. Caveat: all of your other Brotherhood friends are either mages or have recently committed a huge heist that involved the propagation of violence, and you've just become collateral damage.
So, Derived Rule: The petty thief is very much influenced by the actions of his guild-mates. For the longest time, being associated with the Brotherhood was not a death sentence. As Justiciar, Gavin had Brotherhood friends: they were anti-mage and sources of intelligence. He protected them. And then a new regime rolled in (I forget which), wanted to cause trouble that involved "murdering people" and that tense but interesting detente ended.
2. Steal is a worthless skill (except for mail), because it's a much better return on investment to actually get a job.
Derived Rule 2: If the risk outweighs the reward, why bother trying?
Derived Rule 3: Advocate for changes to steal, such that no one sees failure messages until there's a time-delay or they leave the room and check their inventory. Those would be code-changes I'd vehemently support. I would also support auto-success in steal checks in certain places (such as Church Square, River Square, or public areas) during daylight hours where, presumably, the hustle and bustle of vNPCs would be a shield.
3. If you're caught for committing a petty crime, you are going to be under suspicion, and that's okay. That's how it should work.
Derived Rule 4: Stop making so many Southside pickpockets. Basically, you've got the repressed underclass waltzing into the gated community that is Northside, committing petty crime, looking and talking differently than everyone else, and you expect special treatment? No dice, man: this is the TI equivalent of "Northsiding while Poor."
The first rule of thieving is to blend in. Make friends. Two female troubadour-thieves did this masterfully. A Reeve-mage I knew did it even better. And, if you get caught? Try being repentant! Clean yourself up! Act like you've changed, even if you haven't! If you're an arrogant thief who talks about how much they hate the Nobility, gets caught in public squares, and fights the arresting Reeve... guess what?
You are probably the wrong agent to be operating North of the Border.
Note: that doesn't mean you're RPing wrong! Not at all! But it does mean that the Tenebrae and Sapiente really need to ensure that their guild roster includes sufficient balances of people, with different personas, different aims and different goals so that thieves aren't tainted by association.
... make sense? Ask me for more feedback if you like; I've got plenty. :)
Let me be the first to say this: the Brotherhood has consistently been given breaks upon breaks (and it's necessary and good to do that); and as several people who probably will post on this thread can attest, I've done them ICly. At times I'm also vetted to assist Brotherhood GLs via tells. I'm stating these bona fides only to place my comments into context, and because y'all know that I'm a Thief at heart.
Here are some important points:
1. If you're a petty thief, you're not getting executed. Caveat: all of your other Brotherhood friends are either mages or have recently committed a huge heist that involved the propagation of violence, and you've just become collateral damage.
So, Derived Rule: The petty thief is very much influenced by the actions of his guild-mates. For the longest time, being associated with the Brotherhood was not a death sentence. As Justiciar, Gavin had Brotherhood friends: they were anti-mage and sources of intelligence. He protected them. And then a new regime rolled in (I forget which), wanted to cause trouble that involved "murdering people" and that tense but interesting detente ended.
2. Steal is a worthless skill (except for mail), because it's a much better return on investment to actually get a job.
Derived Rule 2: If the risk outweighs the reward, why bother trying?
Derived Rule 3: Advocate for changes to steal, such that no one sees failure messages until there's a time-delay or they leave the room and check their inventory. Those would be code-changes I'd vehemently support. I would also support auto-success in steal checks in certain places (such as Church Square, River Square, or public areas) during daylight hours where, presumably, the hustle and bustle of vNPCs would be a shield.
3. If you're caught for committing a petty crime, you are going to be under suspicion, and that's okay. That's how it should work.
Derived Rule 4: Stop making so many Southside pickpockets. Basically, you've got the repressed underclass waltzing into the gated community that is Northside, committing petty crime, looking and talking differently than everyone else, and you expect special treatment? No dice, man: this is the TI equivalent of "Northsiding while Poor."
The first rule of thieving is to blend in. Make friends. Two female troubadour-thieves did this masterfully. A Reeve-mage I knew did it even better. And, if you get caught? Try being repentant! Clean yourself up! Act like you've changed, even if you haven't! If you're an arrogant thief who talks about how much they hate the Nobility, gets caught in public squares, and fights the arresting Reeve... guess what?
You are probably the wrong agent to be operating North of the Border.
Note: that doesn't mean you're RPing wrong! Not at all! But it does mean that the Tenebrae and Sapiente really need to ensure that their guild roster includes sufficient balances of people, with different personas, different aims and different goals so that thieves aren't tainted by association.
... make sense? Ask me for more feedback if you like; I've got plenty. :)
I really liked some of the feedback here but there was one thing I thought I'd point out.
Well, really Northside is where all the RP is. I mean sure, you'll find the occasional player Southside that you can have some nice RP with but in general you're never going to find anyone there. You are pretty much forced to go northside and the quote above to me doesn't really seem to give people a chance in that sense. Really people only go Southside not for RP (unless you are a thief) but to get shady stuff that you can't find Northside. I bet though we could easily fix that problem if people agree with me on that.Derived Rule 4: Stop making so many Southside pickpockets. Basically, you've got the repressed underclass waltzing into the gated community that is Northside, committing petty crime, looking and talking differently than everyone else, and you expect special treatment? No dice, man: this is the TI equivalent of "Northsiding while Poor."
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Applesauce
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:13 pm
Disclaimer: I don't know anything about the OP's actual IC actions, so when I say "you" below I don't mean anyone specific, I just mean the general/hypothetical "you" that has an interest in making petty criminals viable characters. I am one of those interested players, so if the following offends then pretend I'm just addressing myself.Gavin wrote: 1. If you're a petty thief, you're not getting executed. Caveat: all of your other Brotherhood friends are either mages or have recently committed a huge heist that involved the propagation of violence, and you've just become collateral damage.
So, Derived Rule: The petty thief is very much influenced by the actions of his guild-mates. For the longest time, being associated with the Brotherhood was not a death sentence. As Justiciar, Gavin had Brotherhood friends: they were anti-mage and sources of intelligence. He protected them. And then a new regime rolled in (I forget which), wanted to cause trouble that involved "murdering people" and that tense but interesting detente ended.
Anyway, what Gavin says is really the rub. Supporting or harboring mages is a death sentence, so by linking the Thieves to the Manus you're defining all of its members as either heretics or mages. Anyone that is not will probably rat you out pretty quickly.
If you want petty crimes to exist, they can't be tied inextricably to capital crimes or deadly sins. Let your thieves just thieve and maybe even turn in a few witches, splattered with a black hand calling card. Make it known that the Brotherhood of Common Goods is really only interested in supporting downtrodden Southsiders. Otherwise, when mages start attacking the foremost Priests and Reeves, and those are the people you end up seeing in Ahalin Tower, those people are going to want you dead.
Weighing in a quick response while traveling to say: Yes. This. What they're noting above. When I've got reeve captured prisoners in the cells that have known links to mages, they're pretty much taken IMMEDIATELY out of reeve hands and given over to Order investigation. That means I -can't- slap thrm on the wrist and send them on their way for petty crimes.
The Brotherhood really digs its own grave when allowing witches to run rampant in their ranks, as far as that goes.
I really loathe PKing people. You might note that Lei has a very low number of reeve executions to her name -- please know that that is thoroughly intentional. From my end of things: role playing -stories- is FUN and that's why I play here! I don't want to end anyone's story by executing them!
Whoops- gotta go; at my destination.
The Brotherhood really digs its own grave when allowing witches to run rampant in their ranks, as far as that goes.
I really loathe PKing people. You might note that Lei has a very low number of reeve executions to her name -- please know that that is thoroughly intentional. From my end of things: role playing -stories- is FUN and that's why I play here! I don't want to end anyone's story by executing them!
Whoops- gotta go; at my destination.
Old As Dirt
#lostcause #triedit
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I hate anything that is auto-successful. Bonuses, sure, but never auto-success. Steal is hardly worthless, but the risks do outweigh the reward mostly. That's when you practice with your guildmates until it's 60, and pick easy targets whose mail you can read and use to extort them later.
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I hate anything that is auto-successful. Bonuses, sure, but never auto-success. Steal is hardly worthless, but the risks do outweigh the reward mostly. That's when you practice with your guildmates until it's 60, and pick easy targets whose mail you can read and use to extort them later.
I agree, and I thought I'd just point out that there are (or were) systems put in place to encourage this diversity. I can't give much away, but I highly encourage people to use the tools available. Looking at the Brotherhood helpfiles (HELP THIEVES, I think, when in guild?) will help.really need to ensure that their guild roster includes sufficient balances of people, with different personas, different aims and different goals
Player of: Alexander ab Courtland
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Applesauce
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:13 pm
I disagree that it's a lost cause. I could be wrong, of course =) But I hope not.Leech wrote:#lostcause
The Brotherhood has made it known that they intend to leave mutilated bodies on sticks and make deals with witches. If the "new" leadership makes it known they are moving in a different direction and not making the "mistakes" (ICly, not saying anyone's RP is a mistake) of their predecessors, I don't feel law types would be forced to associate petty thieves (or even violent muggers) with murderers and mages.
Really, there should be a wide variety of punishments to fit a wide variety of crimes. Fines/bribes, hanging around in the public stocks getting stuff thrown at you, maybe losing a finger or hand or something, and I'm sure a ton of other stuff. The Brotherhood just has to let those be viable choices.
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