Petty crimes

[Leech]

Sorry, I sounded overly negative. I actually spoke with staff about this when I first started making changes to the Brohood - I talked about making them permanent changes. They convinced me that that would be unfair, and that each GL has a choice with how he or she runs their guild. At the time I apathetically accepted. Now, I see their point, if not begrudge the consequences. Yes, I think that the Brotherhood could strive as a guild that doesn't accept magic. No, I don't think this should be enforced by staff.

Unfortunately, that leaves us with a guild that will completely change every time they get a new leader, and we all know the Brohood gets a new leader about every month or two, if not sooner. I suppose that's just the nature of the beast. One day you'll have a mage-hating psychopath, the next a shadowy thief who keeps the guild on the down low, and the next a mage sympathizer who works with the Manus. It becomes increasingly hard to have any respect for a guild of organized criminals that supposedly spans the Urth and has eyes everywhere when they cannot keep to a status quo and their leader (Who, in one helpfile, is referred to as never being caught) keeps dying every other month.

[Gavin]

prescient stuff...

And this lack of continuity is exactly why smart law types (who tend to outlive their Brohood compatriots) play it safe rather than sorry. If, historically, Brohood dudes are mage sympathizers or mages themselves, or associated with even the last Tenebrae's reign of murderous terror, why give even a low-level thief the benefit of the doubt?

[Rothgar]

Unfortunately, that leaves us with a guild that will completely change every time they get a new leader, and we all know the Brohood gets a new leader about every month or two, if not sooner [...] It becomes increasingly hard to have any respect for a guild of organized criminals that supposedly spans the Urth and has eyes everywhere when they cannot keep to a status quo and their leader (Who, in one helpfile, is referred to as never being caught) keeps dying every other month.

So much this. Rothgar worked with a Tenebrae, once, and she was dead within the week. Then the next one figured that since the last Tenebrae worked with me, he could too. It doesn't work like that. There's something to be said for having a status quo that doesn't change with the characters that run the guild.

Anyone play Oblivion? My favorite part of the Thieves Guild was the Grey Mask. Why? Because it was a -different person- every time, but they wore the -same mask.- It created this mystique, this... Sexiness... Because it seems like the Grey Mask could never be caught! Maybe thats something to consider. Instead of your status quo being that the Tenebrae has to be a Void mage (I have no idea where that one came from, but it is what it is), maybe just have it so that you have have a certain... Anonymity in leadership. Autonomous members, sleeper agents, all that.

Would I lead the Brotherhood? Probably not. The way that its set up now is that if you're in the Brotherhood, you're considered a heretic and a liar, and immediately burned at the stake. But its not a crazy idea because... Well... The majority of those that we've captured -have- been heretics and mages. Just sayin.

[Gavin]

[tongue in cheek] Just revise the helpfile. [/tongue in cheek]

You only think you've caught the leader of the Brotherhood. The Tenebrae is just the foot soldier, sent like lambs before the slaughter. The real leader of the band of criminals, which now occupies the majority of seats in Tubor's local parliaments and who has agents dutifully married into two of the largest Vavardi merchant families is called...

... the OMNIBRAE!

The Penumbra?

Mr. Chairman?

(And he never gets caught!)

[Applesauce]

It becomes increasingly hard to have any respect for a guild of organized criminals that supposedly spans the Urth and has eyes everywhere when they cannot keep to a status quo and their leader (Who, in one helpfile, is referred to as never being caught) keeps dying every other month.

OK, I'll taste the soup. Where's the spoon?


Anonymous leadership is a good idea, as is a "superleader" (even if none exists codewise). If only Tenebrae and Sapiente can codewise see the guildlist, why even tell the other thieves who Tenebrae is? Find a way to give orders "from the boss" instead of being the boss and then there's no one to even rat out.

At least until the next IC/OOC crossover complaint.

[wimple]

Well, really Northside is where all the RP is. I mean sure, you'll find the occasional player Southside that you can have some nice RP with but in general you're never going to find anyone there. You are pretty much forced to go northside and the quote above to me doesn't really seem to give people a chance in that sense. Really people only go Southside not for RP (unless you are a thief) but to get shady stuff that you can't find Northside. I bet though we could easily fix that problem if people agree with me on that.

Field of Dreams applies here - if you build it, they will come. I started off with a character that owned a South Side location when no one RP'd down there. Advertised like heck. Guess what happened? People started RP'ing there. Made a newer character recently and plopped them in a South Side location, and people came down to RP. RP is only North Side because that's where people are hanging out, but people don't want to hang out endlessly in Church Square or the Quen's - go to other locations, be available on WhereRP, and hang out for a while, and people'll come. Even better if you start up some rumors or other noise so people know things are going on there regularly.

That said, the mage/brotherhood overlap is really problematic. Leadership needs to cut that out, and do so publicly, for there to be a real overhaul in how the Brotherhood members are handled when they are arrested.

Finally, the Brotherhood could get outfits that are the same - there's no reason they couldn't order uniforms from the imms or put a merchant under duress and make the merchant do it. I think during Remi's tenure there was a mask that a lot of people wore that was the same, or the Tenebrae after him wore the same mask, or something. It makes targetting in scenes with them very difficult though, if everyone has the same mask/cloak combo, even if you can tell each other apart otherwise ICly.

[Geras]

... new character? But I liked the old one. :(

[Applesauce]

Really people only go Southside not for RP (unless you are a thief) but to get shady stuff that you can't find Northside. I bet though we could easily fix that problem if people agree with me on that.

Field of Dreams applies here - if you build it, they will come.

A million times agreed. My most fun scenes on TI:L have been in Southside, with other characters who often played Southside, and none of us were Brotherhood.

Other times you can just sit around with RP on and people will find you wherever you are. If you start with two people you're guaranteed an incoming crowd, because folks are so used to seeing 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 on whererp.

[wimple]

... new character? But I liked the old one. :(

Still have the other one. Alting while she heals.

I think it'd be easy enough for a character to become Tenebrae and have people not know they are Tenebrae, especially if there was a large guild turnover at some point. If people stoppped knowing ICly and they were careful about keeping correspondences in the Tenebrae's office or something, it'd be possible to continue relationships with people from Tenebrae to Tenebrae without people knowing. Need to Dread Pirate Roberts it up is all.

I think the questions Temi asked earlier in the thread are important and not something anyone here has really gotten to. Any law types around that want to weigh in?

[Lei]

So, I guess my question would be... what is the current laws set-up lacking? Is there more that the staff can do to make it accessible and usable in creating a fun game for everyone? Why do the current Reeves like or not like it?

I don't see anything lacking in our current law setup. It's simple, it covers all bases, and it leaves room for creative forms of punishment. What more could anyone ask for?

But, in spite of all that, clearly we have an issue:

From my viewpoint it seems that the Reeves are willing to execute any BH members they come in contact with which is not good. What should happen is that if say you stole someone's purse than as a punishment rather than being executed or suspected for the rest of your life that if anything bad happens in the Brotherhood you did it when the only proof they have of you being Brotherhood in the first place is that you stole someone's purse rather than killing the Cardinal you be imprisoned for a bit, whipped, told not to, then let out.

And again:

Quite simply being Brotherhood itself isn't a capital offense it's what comes from being Brotherhood that gets people in trouble but from this most recent purge of the Brotherhood I got the impression they were planning to kill everyone.

I don't like this at all. I don't -want- my Brotherhood friends to be scared they're going to end up executed over a failed steal check. I -like- having little petty cases to deal with. I love getting to use the stocks, rough prisoners up in the dungeon, or make a nice public exhibition of flogging someone, then send them on their way. I'm a sad Lei when I have no prisoners to punish.

But. To reiterate what I said earlier in this thread: when petty criminals come through with ties to magery, I CAN'T let them off easy and shoo them out the door afterward. I completely lose my jurisdiction! Inquisitors get first dibs, and then there's usually not a lot left for me to deal with when they're finished!

Just this last week, we had FIVE reeve prisoners that we had to hand over to the Order. FIVE.

IMO: Our problem here, is that the thieves are no longer just the thieves! They're a mage-harboring organization, and as it should be, thematically, we hardly ever get to look at them through the lens of the Queen's Law anymore! If you guys want your flogging privileges back, you have to get rid of your mages. :(

(please get rid of your mages) :(