It's been suggested that perhaps dual guilding should be more restricted than it currently is. There are pros and cons to allowing it, but there are worries that it has become the default rather than something to be used in certain specific circumstances that make sense.
How do you think it should be handled?
Please discuss!
Dual Guilding
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Applesauce
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:13 pm
[X] IC basis, case by caseTemi wrote:How do you think it should be handled?
If you're in only one guild and suck at your job, you should be removed. If you're in two guilds and suck at one of them, you should be removed from that one. That should go for GLs on down to the lowest ranks of any guild.
I think anyone should be able to try dualguilding if they feel it's appropriate to their character, but not everyone is able to work two jobs. In some cases Precedence may also get in the way - for example, it's just not appropriate for a Knight to order around a Troub GL moonlighting as a Page or Squire (random example, I don't think anyone fits that particular case).
Sorry to be blunt, but I think that the idea of restricting guild membership to a single organisation is just ridiculous.
Whether or not a player can keep up their multiple guild duties should strictly be between them and their respective GLs; as far as I'm concerned, it's none of my business if Joe Blog on the other side of the MUD doesn't have the time to follow through on all his commitments. Frankly, it's disconcerting that a blanket rule could be applied to everyone, no matter what, that would restrict the opportunity to be a part of more than one group of RPers.
Also, single guild membership would become bloody boring. That suggests that each character should be single-goaled and two-dimensional; personally, I -like- crafting in a character's down-time when I don't feel like RPing. I -like- that a single character has different avenues of RP to explore in different groups. Some of my most interesting RP has come from blending different roles (for instance, the Physicians with the Knights and the Merchants with the Troubadours). Taking away a player's ability to think creatively about dual guild membership would severely take away from the fun of the game.
What my argument comes down to is: I am absolutely, 100% for dual guilding, and would not like to see it taken away from the pbase because a few players are of the opinion that it's a "bad thing". As a guild leader, I'll continue to encourage dual-guilding, because I think that it forces people to create unexpected links and to RP outside the box.
/rant over
Whether or not a player can keep up their multiple guild duties should strictly be between them and their respective GLs; as far as I'm concerned, it's none of my business if Joe Blog on the other side of the MUD doesn't have the time to follow through on all his commitments. Frankly, it's disconcerting that a blanket rule could be applied to everyone, no matter what, that would restrict the opportunity to be a part of more than one group of RPers.
Also, single guild membership would become bloody boring. That suggests that each character should be single-goaled and two-dimensional; personally, I -like- crafting in a character's down-time when I don't feel like RPing. I -like- that a single character has different avenues of RP to explore in different groups. Some of my most interesting RP has come from blending different roles (for instance, the Physicians with the Knights and the Merchants with the Troubadours). Taking away a player's ability to think creatively about dual guild membership would severely take away from the fun of the game.
What my argument comes down to is: I am absolutely, 100% for dual guilding, and would not like to see it taken away from the pbase because a few players are of the opinion that it's a "bad thing". As a guild leader, I'll continue to encourage dual-guilding, because I think that it forces people to create unexpected links and to RP outside the box.
/rant over
I agree with Cellan on this one 100%. Taking away dualguilding forces very flat characters and only really allows for game-play with one particular group of RPers.
As for guildleaders giving people more to do, it's stressful enough without having to constantly figure out things for people to do, and I don't really feel it's fair to put the onus onto our GLs to be constantly having to artificially generate RP. Yes, they're guildleaders, but is it really fair to basically force them to run mini-plots all the time? Besides, with the way guildleaders seem to be constantly changing in this game, is such a thing really feasible for most of them?
All of this aside...we already have issues getting characters in certain guilds and finding guild leaders. Is it really a good idea, and do we have the player base, to restrict it to single guilding? I mean, with our existing circumstances, is it something that we can actually do without completely destroying the already sketchy dynamics of the game?
I don't really know the answers to any of these questions. I just know that I'm very conservative against change to the game in any way, shape, or form because I love it exactly the way it is, so I feel that these questions need to be voiced and the realities explored if they haven't already been.
Edit: And, as a personal note, I am very fond of taking advantage of dual guilding to help generate trouble. If dual guilding does need to be restricted, at *least* leave it open to where one can dual guild if one is in a covert guild. Otherwise, you might as well just announce it on OOC that you're a mage/thief if you have a character and don't join a public guild after a month or two.
As for guildleaders giving people more to do, it's stressful enough without having to constantly figure out things for people to do, and I don't really feel it's fair to put the onus onto our GLs to be constantly having to artificially generate RP. Yes, they're guildleaders, but is it really fair to basically force them to run mini-plots all the time? Besides, with the way guildleaders seem to be constantly changing in this game, is such a thing really feasible for most of them?
All of this aside...we already have issues getting characters in certain guilds and finding guild leaders. Is it really a good idea, and do we have the player base, to restrict it to single guilding? I mean, with our existing circumstances, is it something that we can actually do without completely destroying the already sketchy dynamics of the game?
I don't really know the answers to any of these questions. I just know that I'm very conservative against change to the game in any way, shape, or form because I love it exactly the way it is, so I feel that these questions need to be voiced and the realities explored if they haven't already been.
Edit: And, as a personal note, I am very fond of taking advantage of dual guilding to help generate trouble. If dual guilding does need to be restricted, at *least* leave it open to where one can dual guild if one is in a covert guild. Otherwise, you might as well just announce it on OOC that you're a mage/thief if you have a character and don't join a public guild after a month or two.
From a practical perspective (and please forgive me if this was brought up at the OOC meeting), I would be against imposing a one-guild-only rule for crafters in particular, simply because of the size of our playerbase and the time and energy that must be invested to master a craft. There is already a fair amount of unmet demand for player crafted goods. I'd rather not see people forced into creating alts in order to pursue crafts.
I realize that this may not jive well with people's sense of realism and what someone could reasonably accomplish in a career, but it seems a good deal better to me than the more restrictive alternative. I don't have the time and energy to play many alts, so I am glad to be able to pack as much fun and variety into one character as I possibly can. It's an aspect of the game that I really love, actually.
I realize that this may not jive well with people's sense of realism and what someone could reasonably accomplish in a career, but it seems a good deal better to me than the more restrictive alternative. I don't have the time and energy to play many alts, so I am glad to be able to pack as much fun and variety into one character as I possibly can. It's an aspect of the game that I really love, actually.
This. Certainly nobody is forcing GLs to do diddly squat, but making mini-plots every weekend will increase how many QPs you get, your guild activity, and presence in the city which in turn attracts more members. Lots of reasons to give people shit to do.I think GLs likely need to be giving people a lot more to do, if it's necessary to have such wide-spread dual guilding going on in-game.
As for the dual-guilding thing, I'll just leave my opinion to the vote, as it seems the player base already have their minds made up.
Player of: Alexander ab Courtland
I wanted to reply to this specifically: 'help policy guildleaders' outlines expectations for a GL.Leech wrote: Certainly nobody is forcing GLs to do diddly squat, but making mini-plots every weekend will increase how many QPs you get, your guild activity, and presence in the city which in turn attracts more members. Lots of reasons to give people shit to do.
From the perspective of a player who has been involved in dualguilding from different sides, I think it is important to mention that what makes a character most interesting is not the number of roles that you can pile upon them, but the hard choices that they have to make in their lives and what they do with them. I am a proponent of being able to dual guild - in the cases where it makes sense. However, I am completely against treating being both a dedicated Reeve and the Master Craftsman of This or That as the most natural thing in the world. Maybe we should let some people try it, but it should be treated with wariness from both sides. It's not the norm, it's way out there.
I value Marisa's dual position in the court and the merchants, but part of what I decided was important when she took on the role of Chancellor of the Exchequer was figuring out how she would handle that dual identity. In my case, it meant respecting that though the Exchequer position is not very involved OOCly on a day to day basis, it would take a great deal of Marisa's time ICly. She gave up her shop with the merchants and stopped actively taking orders, transitioning her role in the merchants to more of a liaison, trade connections and advisor at different points in time. I enjoy bringing her 'out of retirement' at rare times for special occasions, like donating her work to the big charitable auction or making the Queen's wedding gown. For me, that's made sense as a balance and had the bonus benefit of making it special when she does do tailoring work.
On the other hand, when Deviah was pushing to be allowed to be a blacksmith while he was Grand Inquisitor, Marisa ICly pushed back hard against that. It's an insult to the role of the Grand Inquisitor to suggest you have time to take up a trade on the side due to boredom, and an insult to the merchants to make membership there equivalent to a hobby. I hope people in general would agree that it didn't make sense, and I hope Deviah was trying to stir up trouble and throw his weight around, rather than actually thinking that was a normal thing to do.
Of course coverts should be able to dual guild, because it's expected that no one knows what they're doing in their off-times. And of course there are situations where a single role puts a person in more than one guild. I have no problem with Olivia joining the Knights as the Cardinal to keep tabs on them. I have no problem with various guildleaders joining the Court as those guildleader roles for the purpose of a link to the crown for their guild.
And there is nothing wrong with taking on dual roles if you recognize that there are drawbacks to doing so. Sabin was both a Reeve and a Woodworker and played up that he was taking up merchant work and putting in extra time with the merchants to earn money for his growing family. There were stern warnings that he couldn't let his Reeve work fall through the cracks if he was going to do this, and it was a balance which he had to roleplay. Arynon is currently a Knight and a Troubadour apprentice. It's weird, but he's had to figure out how to balance the split loyalties and interests, and the push-back from Cyrio in his choice to do so is making him think about what is important to his character, make hard choices and adding drama. What I like about both of these situations is that it isn't treated as if it is a normal thing to do.
I do think there is an issue with non-covert guildleaders taking on roles in secondary guilds that are not specifically in support of their guildleader position. It doesn't make sense and it devalues the guildleader role. If you are saying that you can't make an interesting character solely in that one role, what hope does the rest of your guild have? It isn't a guildleader's job to make sure that everyone in their guild has roleplay all the time, but it IS a guildleader's job to ensure that the definition of the guild, its policies and what it does is deep enough to support a character concept, and to ensure that their guild is taken more seriously than something you stick on the character sheet as a hobby that opens up guildskills.
I suppose my ideal handling of the issue would be a cultural one. People stop treating it as normal and expected to have two careers, guildleaders resist people wanting to join their guild as a hobby or not taking it seriously as a full-time job to fulfill the guild's role, and the exceptions are treated as exceptions. As it stands now, though, a more restrictive policy would be better than continuing to ignore the issue, if this is what the current policies encourage - from just my personal humble perspective.
I value Marisa's dual position in the court and the merchants, but part of what I decided was important when she took on the role of Chancellor of the Exchequer was figuring out how she would handle that dual identity. In my case, it meant respecting that though the Exchequer position is not very involved OOCly on a day to day basis, it would take a great deal of Marisa's time ICly. She gave up her shop with the merchants and stopped actively taking orders, transitioning her role in the merchants to more of a liaison, trade connections and advisor at different points in time. I enjoy bringing her 'out of retirement' at rare times for special occasions, like donating her work to the big charitable auction or making the Queen's wedding gown. For me, that's made sense as a balance and had the bonus benefit of making it special when she does do tailoring work.
On the other hand, when Deviah was pushing to be allowed to be a blacksmith while he was Grand Inquisitor, Marisa ICly pushed back hard against that. It's an insult to the role of the Grand Inquisitor to suggest you have time to take up a trade on the side due to boredom, and an insult to the merchants to make membership there equivalent to a hobby. I hope people in general would agree that it didn't make sense, and I hope Deviah was trying to stir up trouble and throw his weight around, rather than actually thinking that was a normal thing to do.
Of course coverts should be able to dual guild, because it's expected that no one knows what they're doing in their off-times. And of course there are situations where a single role puts a person in more than one guild. I have no problem with Olivia joining the Knights as the Cardinal to keep tabs on them. I have no problem with various guildleaders joining the Court as those guildleader roles for the purpose of a link to the crown for their guild.
And there is nothing wrong with taking on dual roles if you recognize that there are drawbacks to doing so. Sabin was both a Reeve and a Woodworker and played up that he was taking up merchant work and putting in extra time with the merchants to earn money for his growing family. There were stern warnings that he couldn't let his Reeve work fall through the cracks if he was going to do this, and it was a balance which he had to roleplay. Arynon is currently a Knight and a Troubadour apprentice. It's weird, but he's had to figure out how to balance the split loyalties and interests, and the push-back from Cyrio in his choice to do so is making him think about what is important to his character, make hard choices and adding drama. What I like about both of these situations is that it isn't treated as if it is a normal thing to do.
I do think there is an issue with non-covert guildleaders taking on roles in secondary guilds that are not specifically in support of their guildleader position. It doesn't make sense and it devalues the guildleader role. If you are saying that you can't make an interesting character solely in that one role, what hope does the rest of your guild have? It isn't a guildleader's job to make sure that everyone in their guild has roleplay all the time, but it IS a guildleader's job to ensure that the definition of the guild, its policies and what it does is deep enough to support a character concept, and to ensure that their guild is taken more seriously than something you stick on the character sheet as a hobby that opens up guildskills.
I suppose my ideal handling of the issue would be a cultural one. People stop treating it as normal and expected to have two careers, guildleaders resist people wanting to join their guild as a hobby or not taking it seriously as a full-time job to fulfill the guild's role, and the exceptions are treated as exceptions. As it stands now, though, a more restrictive policy would be better than continuing to ignore the issue, if this is what the current policies encourage - from just my personal humble perspective.
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