Dual Guilding

[Gavin]

I'm completely for dual-guilding. Actually, I'd be for tri- and even quadra-guilding if it were possible -- and provided it all made sense. Those who mentioned above that "there are IC means for handling this" are correct, I think.

Certainly, some dual-guilding situations are more easily digestible. Gavin's job right now is quite literally "getting Cellan pregnant," meaning that seeking the Knights is actually my main "guild RP." And for the longest time, he was a Reeve with the rank of "Reeve (Retired)."

As someone mentioned, having the Cardinal join the Knights to be its Vicar General makes sense. Having a merchant magnate as Chancellor of the Exchequer makes sense. Having a nobleman dally around with some other job certainly makes sense. Really, if RP'd consistently and earnestly, I can't think of any combination that wouldn't work.

Even the idea of a Grand Inquisitor learning blacksmithing? I could make that work: in fact, I had a Grand Inquisitor who had knight experience and who could shoe his own horses. So, I can honestly that I -- and many others! -- could do it in a way that doesn't devalue the role. Besides, making my own torture equipment? Score!

In the end, there are IC means to take care of things, whether it's the GL busting down the 2GL or an in-guild mutiny. It sounds to me like the major gripes are twofold:

(1) GLs not creating enough in-game plots, which isn't germane at all to this discussion, but is an important point and could and probably should be addressed, such as mini-plot quotas; and

(2) That it's "accepted" that people are in 2 guilds. I personally don't have a problem with this, because (to turn the Arynon example on its head), if Cyrio the Poet Laudate wanted to enlist as a Reeve grunt, I'd expect people would go "wtf." (But if it's credibly RP'd, then why not? This is a game. Let people play! Love each other.)

[Marisa]

Even the idea of a Grand Inquisitor learning blacksmithing? I could make that work: in fact, I had a Grand Inquisitor who had knight experience and who could shoe his own horses. So, I can honestly that I -- and many others! -- could do it in a way that doesn't devalue the role. Besides, making my own torture equipment? Score!

No problem with a Grand Inquisitor learning blacksmithing. Big problems with a Grand Inquisitor taking up a second career as a smith. Your description suggests a hobbyist smith, which can certainly add interesting depth to a character. But I think it's become very hard for dedicated merchants to exist because so much of the guild seems to be hobbyists who want to be able to master their crafts and do it themselves, without really being dedicated to it. We have so many merchants, and still people are constantly wondering.. okay, who's even a merchant that does x? I thought the point of guildskills is that some skills you cannot master without being professionally highly dedicated to it. But it seems to be more filling slots for high level hobbies, which hurts the concept of guilds as organizations, rather than classes or backgrounds.

[Leech]

The biggest and most obvious solution would be for GLs to adopt stricter IC policies, and make joining a guild a big commitment. But people hate challenges, right?

[Argider]

From the perspective of a player who has been involved in dualguilding from different sides, I think it is important to mention that what makes a character most interesting is not the number of roles that you can pile upon them, but the hard choices that they have to make in their lives and what they do with them.

I think that's what you value, but I don't think it has to be what everyone else gets from the system. There are many reasons why someone might want to dualguild, and what I basically read from your argument is that you think some people aren't meeting your expectations in how they RP. "I made this a hard choice for my character, so you should too." It seems to me to be a critique on how other people choose to play their characters, based, in part, on what you think is "most interesting."

That aside, I don't generally disagree: I think there should be IC repercussions for every public choice a PC makes and that PCs should generally have good reasons for doing the things that they do. But I can't think of a single person off the top of my head that has ruined my RP or my enjoyment of the game because they chose to pursue two guilds. If anything, I think people have a tendency to play too many alts.

When I first started playing TI, the Knights were almost non-existent. Having Argider pursue a position in the Merchants guild not only helped give me something to do and stay interested in the game during that time, but the decision was ICly motivated by familial pressure to follow in his father's footsteps and enhance their trade in the capital. As time went on, my character shifted his focus away from jewelsmithing (the family trade) to blacksmithing, which he believed would be far more valuable to the Knights. His blacksmithing experience was minor up until that point, but afterward, he began learning the trade in earnest during his free time (basically, whenever he wasn't on patrol, training, or arresting criminals). I often wrote in his blog about how exhausted he was or how he struggled to keep up with both his familial responsibility and his desire to be a meaningful and contributing member of the Knights. He looked to his sister and close friends for support, and his fatigue often impacted his personal relationships during RP. It's true that no one in the Knights ever made a stink about his pursuits in the Merchants guild, though one of the EMs chose to recognize his interest and growing skill in blacksmithing as an asset, rather than a conflict of interest. As for owning a shop and all the rest: most of the daily work is done by hired help and apprentices, and I prefer to RP that the glasswork available in Argider's shop is actually imported from his brother's workshop in Montford, not made by his own hand. Finally, any orders that he cannot (or will not) fill himself within a reasonable period of time, he passes on to another experienced smith. He is definitely not a "hobbyist," and he takes both careers quite seriously, filling not one but two much-needed roles in the game.

Just because I don't go around throwing these details into public RP with everyone I meet, however, doesn't mean they don't exist, or that Argider's choice to be in two guilds is meaningless to him or takes no effort. Is the choice due, in part, to me wanting to be able to do more with a single character? Absolutely. Am I going to feel bad about that? No, I don't think I should.

I also don't feel it's my place to judge other players based on how they play their characters, how they rationalize their characters' goals, or how they bide their characters' time within the currently accepted system. Nor would I be pleased by a policy/code change that would limit their options: I value the current system as-is. I have utilized it in a way that I personally find "most interesting," and I have tried to make both careers an essential part of my character's story.

But sure, I can agree with a crackdown on (willy-nilly? unrealistic? unreasonable? and where do we draw the line?) dualguilding by changing IC culture and expectations. I'm on board with that.

[Geras]

I kind of want to change my vote now :3

[Kinaed]

What if seeking a guild beyond the first cost something XP-wise or something unless you're covert? This might stop 'hobbists' from going for it.

[Argider]

What if seeking a guild beyond the first cost something XP-wise or something unless you're covert? This might stop 'hobbists' from going for it.

A higher level of consistent activity, maybe?

Otherwise, I dunno. I'm of the opinion that what's really needed are GLs who prune out the folks who either don't rise above "hobbyist" level or who otherwise don't have solid RP surrounding their involvement and reasons for being in a guild.

If someone's getting a guild's perks, I agree that they ought to be putting something in, whether it's time, money, XP, activity, etc.

[Kinaed]

Activity would be the ideal, but I don't see a lot of Gls pruning their guilds for inactivity, nor is there an easy way to tell if what RP activity they do have is guild-related...

[Argider]

What is "easy" then? A command that pumps out an OOC readout? Why does it need to be easy? Why shouldn't it involve a little effort?

Ways to potentially track activity for non-coverts:

1. Set aside a monthly benchmark goal or other criteria for guild members aim for
2. Require a monthly or bimonthly progress report toward that benchmark
3. Inquire after one's other accomplishments, activities, and/or commitments for the month
4. Review their gnote activity, if any
5. (when the system is implemented) Review whether they actively interviewed anyone for sponsorship/membership

If I were a GL, I'd say that if a person can't be bothered to write a short progress report about their activities in the guild for review, they probably shouldn't be a member. I'd also say that if a GL can't be bothered to keep track of its members ("hobbyist GLs?"), then they might ought not to be a GL.

But since it seems like having active GLs is often an issue... sure, let's take the easy way. Maybe reduce the amount of time someone can be inactive before getting booted for/from their secondary guild? That'd be an automatic way to do it.

[Marisa]

I worry that an xp cost would exacerbate the issue, rather than helping it. It makes it into an OOC minmaxing choice rather than an IC one for the character, and gives a sense of entitlement that the guild benefits are deserved whether it is being RPed or not because they have been purchased.

I do like some of Argider's suggestions, though I worry that not easy would either quickly become not-enforced or 'we ain't got any guildleaders left'. IC accountability is good, but the more streamlined it can be, the more likely it gets used.

A couple of other thoughts I had:

A synopsis of how the character spends their visible time that is accessible by both GLs (or other people as well if we wanted?). This requires that players make IC sense of how their character is making both things work, and if the merchant GL looks at it and it says they're spending all their time on knight work and just doing a few merchant projects on the side, they don't get that merchant promotion. And so on. Coverts don't care - they don't want you to be -visibly- dedicating any time to them.

Let characters determine how much of their time they dedicate to different pursuits, totaling up to 100%. Maybe reward guilds for having high ratios of activity to number of active members, to encourage thinking carefully about whether that part-timer is beneficial. Or perhaps have dedication percent requirements to hold a certain rank in a guild. Maybe GL positions require 90% dedication, which precludes other roles which have dedicated time requirements, but wouldn't get in the way of like a liaison role that requires very little actual commitment. Maybe these requirements are something GLs can determine and get set by the staff. Maybe it can even tie in to an eventual system with getting returns out of businesses or noble lands.

Or in a more simple version, maybe you just can't hold high ranks in multiple non-covert guilds. Rank 15 or above in one guild means that in your second guild, you are below rank 15?