The sheer amount of OOC navigation that must go into a scene. Is this fair? Are you okay with this? Can I do this? What about this? What happened when so and so and... blah, blah, blah.
What do people think is the main cause of this? The lack of not having enough coded backup to check success when doing certain things? Anybody want to vent about this, talk about it, come up with a solution maybe and all shake hands about it? I've seen a lot of people get worked up by it, and it really causes some OOC tension when all I want to do is RP. I end up going quiet-mode nowadays.
Our Main Flaw
I often RP in quiet mode myself.
I think there are two reasons for the OOC Chatter: 1) a desire to OOCly connect with people around the scene, make friends, and possibly in some cases to manipulate the scene, and 2) a genuine lack of confidence to just go ahead and do whatever you want.
I like RP without osays and tells. Honestly, I'd probably like TI better without OOC channels - but I've always bowed to the pbase's desire at large to keep them. Anyway, that's one change I'm willing to offer people if enough are on board with it. *big toothy grin*
Just do it. Forgiveness is easier to get than permission. And when it comes to RP - far more fun.
I think there are two reasons for the OOC Chatter: 1) a desire to OOCly connect with people around the scene, make friends, and possibly in some cases to manipulate the scene, and 2) a genuine lack of confidence to just go ahead and do whatever you want.
I like RP without osays and tells. Honestly, I'd probably like TI better without OOC channels - but I've always bowed to the pbase's desire at large to keep them. Anyway, that's one change I'm willing to offer people if enough are on board with it. *big toothy grin*
Just do it. Forgiveness is easier to get than permission. And when it comes to RP - far more fun.
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Applesauce
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I gotta say, this would make some jobs a lot easier. More than half of my time is spent in tells with folks about policy issues. I always figure it seems more dickish to refuse to chat, so haven't thought about just turning it off.Kinaed wrote:Just do it. Forgiveness is easier to get than permission. And when it comes to RP - far more fun.
But I guess that's why we have policy imms, right? Is it OK playerwise to go quiet for a scene and assume if there's a legit problem then they will contact an imm to halt the scene?
@Leech: I've long thought this too, but I may have come to different conclusions than you. You asked:
But we don't have that. Meaning that, in nearly every scene in which I've participated, two things happen: (1) there's always an endless spam of osays, enough that I wish the osay command would be removed; and (2) fortunately, people seem to be willing to negotiate or otherwise discuss and reach a consensus on these things -- like positioning, drawing items, considering the actions of NPCs, including vNPCs and bodyguards -- before it's left to code.
I also have another, more personal reason. You'll remember that I annoyed the hell out of you on Naer when I afforded you multiple chances to escape. I'm in this for weaving stories, and I don't mind losing. I'd certainly mind getting PK'd, since that'd hurt, but if an adversary boldly escapes to live to fight another day? That's fine with me!
So, to sum it up: people are going to negotiate around a nonexistent framework because they want to be "fair." Because, you know damn well if, you're in the middle of RP, someone waltzed in, advanced on you twice, drew his weapon, and did an attack emote while you were waiting your "turn" to pose, even if you didn't cry foul, someone else would. The only way to address this problem is to establish procedures for transitioning to contentious scenes. Oh, and removing osay for non-cyans. Multitells work just fine, and osay does more harm than good!!
For me, the number one reason is that TI, unlike other roleplaying games, doesn't have an accepted framework for transitioning to contentious (rather than cooperative) actions. By that I mean there's no set answer on when it's permissible, given our shared code of conduct, to engage someone with a weapon, with magic, with temijul, or even with other actions like striking them bare-fisted in a silly barfight. If this were any other RPG, we'd roll for initiative; understand that a move and an action constitutes one "turn"; and perhaps spells would have charge times.Leech wrote:The sheer amount of OOC navigation that must go into a scene. Is this fair? Are you okay with this? Can I do this? What about this? What happened when so and so and... blah, blah, blah. What do people think is the main cause of this?
But we don't have that. Meaning that, in nearly every scene in which I've participated, two things happen: (1) there's always an endless spam of osays, enough that I wish the osay command would be removed; and (2) fortunately, people seem to be willing to negotiate or otherwise discuss and reach a consensus on these things -- like positioning, drawing items, considering the actions of NPCs, including vNPCs and bodyguards -- before it's left to code.
I also have another, more personal reason. You'll remember that I annoyed the hell out of you on Naer when I afforded you multiple chances to escape. I'm in this for weaving stories, and I don't mind losing. I'd certainly mind getting PK'd, since that'd hurt, but if an adversary boldly escapes to live to fight another day? That's fine with me!
So, to sum it up: people are going to negotiate around a nonexistent framework because they want to be "fair." Because, you know damn well if, you're in the middle of RP, someone waltzed in, advanced on you twice, drew his weapon, and did an attack emote while you were waiting your "turn" to pose, even if you didn't cry foul, someone else would. The only way to address this problem is to establish procedures for transitioning to contentious scenes. Oh, and removing osay for non-cyans. Multitells work just fine, and osay does more harm than good!!
The above is absolutely fine.But I guess that's why we have policy imms, right? Is it OK playerwise to go quiet for a scene and assume if there's a legit problem then they will contact an imm to halt the scene?
I'm happy to remove osays since we do have multi-tells. Discuss at OOC Chat!
I usually deal with this problem myself: if I want no OOC interaction, then I just turn all my channels off. Some people love the OOC communication, which is fine with me. I don't try and make the decision for anyone else, and just go with whatever makes me feel comfortable!
Good question.
Based off my own experience, I think a lot of OOC actually happens in tense situations in part because TI players tend to be considerate, supportive people who want to engage each other fairly. I also agree with Gavin that there isn't a clear framework in place for transitioning from free-form RP into combative/aggressive situations in which one or more characters are trying to do something to another against their will.
An accepted framework that doesn't rely heavily on OOC communication seems like something worth brainstorming over.
As for osays and oemotes: I relied heavily on osays and visnet in the first couple of months, but now that I'm a more experienced newbie, I have to say that I find osays and oemotes largely unnecessary and oftentimes detrimental to RP, except in those situations where they're used to help struggling new players or to make decisions about the outcomes or course of tense RP. And even then, I wonder if there aren't other potential solutions.
One trend I have noticed over the months is that, in tense situations, some people will fall back on osays and oemotes to support or comfort their fellow players, and this sometimes explodes into laughing, joking, and a spam of cyan text that has almost nothing to do with the scene unfolding except to relieve tension. The resulting OOC spam can be frustrating and distracting to someone who is trying to immerse themselves in the scene, especially in a public place. At the same time, I realize that the spam often comes from a well-intentioned place.
Now, I'm not sure that osays need to be removed outright, but I wouldn't be against further limiting their use or pushing for a culture in which they're used more sparingly. On the other hand, I don't think I'd miss oemotes at all. But, my preference is to limit OOC communication in general while in RP.
As far as problems go, though, having supportive, engaging players is probably not the worst thing ever. ;)
Based off my own experience, I think a lot of OOC actually happens in tense situations in part because TI players tend to be considerate, supportive people who want to engage each other fairly. I also agree with Gavin that there isn't a clear framework in place for transitioning from free-form RP into combative/aggressive situations in which one or more characters are trying to do something to another against their will.
An accepted framework that doesn't rely heavily on OOC communication seems like something worth brainstorming over.
As for osays and oemotes: I relied heavily on osays and visnet in the first couple of months, but now that I'm a more experienced newbie, I have to say that I find osays and oemotes largely unnecessary and oftentimes detrimental to RP, except in those situations where they're used to help struggling new players or to make decisions about the outcomes or course of tense RP. And even then, I wonder if there aren't other potential solutions.
One trend I have noticed over the months is that, in tense situations, some people will fall back on osays and oemotes to support or comfort their fellow players, and this sometimes explodes into laughing, joking, and a spam of cyan text that has almost nothing to do with the scene unfolding except to relieve tension. The resulting OOC spam can be frustrating and distracting to someone who is trying to immerse themselves in the scene, especially in a public place. At the same time, I realize that the spam often comes from a well-intentioned place.
Now, I'm not sure that osays need to be removed outright, but I wouldn't be against further limiting their use or pushing for a culture in which they're used more sparingly. On the other hand, I don't think I'd miss oemotes at all. But, my preference is to limit OOC communication in general while in RP.
As far as problems go, though, having supportive, engaging players is probably not the worst thing ever. ;)
I'm not sure how things went at the OOC chat, but this seems like a worthwhile investment of time. Having a supportive playerbase is definitely a reason why there is so much OOC chatter, but I've seen multiple occasions where it only goes to promote a negative atmosphere and people just end up not wanting to RP.An accepted framework that doesn't rely heavily on OOC communication seems like something worth brainstorming over.
So, how can we cut down on mediating non-consensual RP? The main problem with all MUDs in this regard is that non-consensual RP usually rewards the fastest typer. I've seen MUDs overcome this by strictly enforcing a turn-based emote system where if you stumble into a scene you have to wait for everyone to emote once, first, to set the scene and then you can emote and turns follow thenceforth. Emoting fleeing takes a turn, and then you can flee if not in combat, in which case the combat code takes care of it. Approaching somebody takes a turn - drawing a weapon does not and neither does taking a swing.
I, unfortunately, really hate being forced to take turns. I like the freedom of style, and I often find myself wanting to RPecho something completely off-topic, like my character's clothing or NPC reaction, after the fact.
What do people think? If you were to write a spec for Azarial on how to mediate non-consensual scenes (grappling, knife-point shit, approaching and attacking) how would you go about it?
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There's also something else... the idea that maybe we can just use the system in place and not worry about other shit. Am I being too picky? Are you? We can approach somebody and attack them in the same 'turn', yes, but is that really a bad thing? If I'm charging at somebody and they don't expect to be tackled, would they really have time to run away - or would the fleeing come after (in which case it can be handled by the code)?
I often handle grappling and all these non-consensual scenes with combat checks anyways - if I hit with unarmed, I grapple you, ect. As a matter of fact, maybe just an unarmed tech for grapple would be nice, as that seems to be where a lot of talk comes from on my end at least. That, and what a player is allowed to do in a turn. Most recently, I had to break a lock as Casimir and I asked players if a dice roll would be okay (because there was no physical representation of a lock, and I don't know if we have a lock breaking string available). things like that might need to be suggested as something to code in, or something to fix (the Common Cells could easily be separated, or at least have a number of lockable shackles in the room equal to the number of cells and let the shackles be the cell locks.)
Just thinking aloud, at this point.
Player of: Alexander ab Courtland
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Takta
Things I am PERSONALLY thinking about as fixes right now (read, these are not staff opinion/have not been endorsed by other folks yet:)
1) A helpfile explaining what kind of actions count as a 'turn' (use step not approach/move, draw is a turn, etc. etc. etc)
2) For the turns command to do an 'initiative' roll and spit out a non-binding turn order based on dex rolls (people in the scene can type 'turns list' at any point to be reminded what this turn order is, but it will not limit when you can actually pose/act - it's there as a help, not a restriction.)
1) A helpfile explaining what kind of actions count as a 'turn' (use step not approach/move, draw is a turn, etc. etc. etc)
2) For the turns command to do an 'initiative' roll and spit out a non-binding turn order based on dex rolls (people in the scene can type 'turns list' at any point to be reminded what this turn order is, but it will not limit when you can actually pose/act - it's there as a help, not a restriction.)
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