I'm a new player. I've been loving the game. But being limited 480 characters in 'rumor', and having to OOCly pay for rumors in order to participate in a vital part of the game world (if my PC wouldn't pay ICly, and isn't the type to make friends) is enough to make me stop playing.
This is a fantastic game. Great world, great players. Strong policies. And this is the first instance where I've seen a policy that seems geared to stifle, instead of encourage, RP. I'm not sure what the game gains from such a strict limit on length, or from making PCs navigate IC/OOC waters. (Surely plenty of PCs wouldn't pay for tavern rumors; poor ones, aloof ones, foreign ones, timid ones, devout ones, monomaniacal ones. Let them just 'happen' to overhear it without going to the OOC effort of paying. And if that coin goes to the Merchant Guild or something, just ship them a penny for every 100 silver sold, instead. Or to the Troubadours, to reflect the vnpc harpist in the corner.)
I very much hope that staff will consider changing this policy. 2000 characters and no payment would go farther, I think, in supporting RP.
Rumor
Yes, the limit on rumors suck but if it wasn't there you would have massive rambling ones. Maybe increase the limit to 550 characters?
Paying for rumors isn't supposed to be veiwed as OOC. You are literally bribing people to dish the dirt, as a merchant you can even haggle the price (<3). You can also comfortably go around without ever having to pay for a rumor, you'll just be out of the circle excepting the tidbits you'll overhear in gossip central areas. Being as your character isn't one for making friends it seems completely logical to go this route as not many people would be open to talking to you anyway!
Paying for rumors isn't supposed to be veiwed as OOC. You are literally bribing people to dish the dirt, as a merchant you can even haggle the price (<3). You can also comfortably go around without ever having to pay for a rumor, you'll just be out of the circle excepting the tidbits you'll overhear in gossip central areas. Being as your character isn't one for making friends it seems completely logical to go this route as not many people would be open to talking to you anyway!
So keep some limit. 2000 characters. Maybe even 1500, if we're afraid of people RPing too much. But long rambling rumors are a small price to pay for RP. I mean, all we do in a MUD is enter text strings; we might as well limit emotes to 50 characters for the same reason!
The one place in-game that's designed specifically to allow a player, in a 'non-local' way, to become a sort of mini-storyteller, is truncated to the point of tedium. I don't see the benefit to the game. We allow massive rambling plots, I hope, and massively rambling pcs--I know, because I play one! If people are inclined to write massive rambling rumors, more power to 'em. Sometimes the drunk in the corner rambles. So what? It's all IC. Unlike a hard character limit, which is ... what? The medieval-era version of Twitter?
As for OOCness, that was the suggestion I got when I asked about this on visnet. That my PC could kind of OOCly pay for rumors, while actually, ICly, pretending that he's paying for something else. Which makes sense if your PC has all the coin in the world, and you wouldn't prefer to use the little you have for RP purposes. But if you're a new player, and not one of the Ten Thousand Nobles, you aren't in that position. And, frankly, why should you be? Why should anyone?
When's the last time you paid for gossip IRL? I hear rumors all the time, and I've never in my life paid for them. And sure, my PC is a creep, but he'd certainly hear rumors, just given the amount of time he spends in a drunken daze in taverns! If nothing else, he should know the rumors.
And I'd RP with the rumors, if I knew 'em. I'd have fun with them. I hope I'd give other people fun with them, too. Isn't that the whole point? The way it is now, they're not available to me. (And they're too damned short to be really juicy in any case!)
I couldn't afford to buy all the rumors even if I wanted to (which I don't, because my PC would never pay for a rumor). Which is quite newbie-unfriendly. I started play with 50 silver. I'd need to spend all my starting money just to catch up with rumors! Is that an obstacle you really want new players to face?
I just don't see the benefits other than 'cuts down on rambling' (which, frankly, the whole mud is one big ramble, that's what we do here, and people can always just not read a rumor) and possibly getting coin into circulation. On the detriment side, it limits RP, limits player contribution to the world, makes little IC sense, and forces players to choose between acting in a strictly IC way and fully participating in the gameworld.
The one place in-game that's designed specifically to allow a player, in a 'non-local' way, to become a sort of mini-storyteller, is truncated to the point of tedium. I don't see the benefit to the game. We allow massive rambling plots, I hope, and massively rambling pcs--I know, because I play one! If people are inclined to write massive rambling rumors, more power to 'em. Sometimes the drunk in the corner rambles. So what? It's all IC. Unlike a hard character limit, which is ... what? The medieval-era version of Twitter?
As for OOCness, that was the suggestion I got when I asked about this on visnet. That my PC could kind of OOCly pay for rumors, while actually, ICly, pretending that he's paying for something else. Which makes sense if your PC has all the coin in the world, and you wouldn't prefer to use the little you have for RP purposes. But if you're a new player, and not one of the Ten Thousand Nobles, you aren't in that position. And, frankly, why should you be? Why should anyone?
When's the last time you paid for gossip IRL? I hear rumors all the time, and I've never in my life paid for them. And sure, my PC is a creep, but he'd certainly hear rumors, just given the amount of time he spends in a drunken daze in taverns! If nothing else, he should know the rumors.
And I'd RP with the rumors, if I knew 'em. I'd have fun with them. I hope I'd give other people fun with them, too. Isn't that the whole point? The way it is now, they're not available to me. (And they're too damned short to be really juicy in any case!)
I couldn't afford to buy all the rumors even if I wanted to (which I don't, because my PC would never pay for a rumor). Which is quite newbie-unfriendly. I started play with 50 silver. I'd need to spend all my starting money just to catch up with rumors! Is that an obstacle you really want new players to face?
I just don't see the benefits other than 'cuts down on rambling' (which, frankly, the whole mud is one big ramble, that's what we do here, and people can always just not read a rumor) and possibly getting coin into circulation. On the detriment side, it limits RP, limits player contribution to the world, makes little IC sense, and forces players to choose between acting in a strictly IC way and fully participating in the gameworld.
I'm sorry that the rumor system isn't suiting your hopes for it. We did decide to go with a system that treats this extra information as a commodity, rather than just freely available information, to encourage it as a roleplayed system which people can freely share in their interactions with others to encourage that sort of interaction. You will also be in for free on any rumors that you start, and can see additions to them. It won't suit every sort of character, and it is designed to work this way ICly, but we don't have a problem if you tweak the way you use it OOCly, as long as it is still within the constraints everyone has to play by.
I wasn't aware of the exact length limit, but it is designed to simulate approximately one tidbit from a person in a conversation, and the rumor can grow to have inputs from everyone that gets involved in the rumor. They shouldn't really be longer than a goodly sized emote, since they are put out randomly as teasers in public locations, one segment at a time, and isn't set up for full stories in one. What might be more reasonable, and I'll suggest to Kinaed, is maybe to allow more than one contribution per rumor per person.
I wasn't aware of the exact length limit, but it is designed to simulate approximately one tidbit from a person in a conversation, and the rumor can grow to have inputs from everyone that gets involved in the rumor. They shouldn't really be longer than a goodly sized emote, since they are put out randomly as teasers in public locations, one segment at a time, and isn't set up for full stories in one. What might be more reasonable, and I'll suggest to Kinaed, is maybe to allow more than one contribution per rumor per person.
I don't mind changing the length limit, that was just an arbitrary decision at creation.
With the silver - actually, you do hear rumors for free at random once an hour if you hang out in a public or rumor mill. Also, you can get access to rumors for free if you're a Troubadour, talk to a troubadour, or talk to any other player who has a rumor. People can rumor tell rumors to one another also, so it's a matter of being social and RPing with people rather than purchasing from the source.
It's only when a player feels the need to literally know every rumor that we felt characters aren't just sitting there having a chat, but are choosing to actively seek information from people beyond what the average person would know. That's represented by a silver cost and bribery.
That said, I think there's a couple of updates I'd be for with regards to the rumor system - in part due to the OP's comments:
1. Increase the character limits to 2000. Sure, why not?
2. Make it so that if you hear a rumor randomly whilst sitting around, that rumor is marked as owned for you and you can access the whole convo.
3. Make it so that rumors about people can't be seen directly by those people. This is really to reduce some serious angst people who are the subject of rumors have experienced. The truth is, most people, if they do hear a rumor about themselves, don't hear it in the original form by any stretch of the imagination, and rarely from the source.
4. Give each player a random selection of free rumors each week to be representative of what the average person can hear.
Thanks for the suggestions, BingoX!
With the silver - actually, you do hear rumors for free at random once an hour if you hang out in a public or rumor mill. Also, you can get access to rumors for free if you're a Troubadour, talk to a troubadour, or talk to any other player who has a rumor. People can rumor tell rumors to one another also, so it's a matter of being social and RPing with people rather than purchasing from the source.
It's only when a player feels the need to literally know every rumor that we felt characters aren't just sitting there having a chat, but are choosing to actively seek information from people beyond what the average person would know. That's represented by a silver cost and bribery.
That said, I think there's a couple of updates I'd be for with regards to the rumor system - in part due to the OP's comments:
1. Increase the character limits to 2000. Sure, why not?
2. Make it so that if you hear a rumor randomly whilst sitting around, that rumor is marked as owned for you and you can access the whole convo.
3. Make it so that rumors about people can't be seen directly by those people. This is really to reduce some serious angst people who are the subject of rumors have experienced. The truth is, most people, if they do hear a rumor about themselves, don't hear it in the original form by any stretch of the imagination, and rarely from the source.
4. Give each player a random selection of free rumors each week to be representative of what the average person can hear.
Thanks for the suggestions, BingoX!
I feel like option #3 will be a big detriment to the rumor system.
If the intent is to prevent negative feelings, I think this fix will not help, because players will still hear about negative rumors re: themselves from alternative sources. Other people will likely tell you, but if not? You can look at the rumor yourself on an alt. Finding out that you've got a rumor posted about you belatedly strikes me as a nastier surprise than seeing it relatively soon after its posting. You could argue that it would create RP, but as a bard, I wouldn't really want to be asked repeatedly 'Is there a rumor about me today? Now is there a rumor about me?' etc.
It also has a negative side effect of its own... without being able to purchase a rumor about yourself, you will not be able to comment on it. So not only will you become aware of the rumor after its posting, you will be unable to answer the rumor.
I personally derive a large part of my amusement and fun from the rumor system in reading the rumors about my PC and then adding slanderous comments that insult myself. That option would be entirely removed by this change.
The other changes I am 100% in favor of. Expanding the rumor system is awesome - I'm just not so sure about contracting it.
If the intent is to prevent negative feelings, I think this fix will not help, because players will still hear about negative rumors re: themselves from alternative sources. Other people will likely tell you, but if not? You can look at the rumor yourself on an alt. Finding out that you've got a rumor posted about you belatedly strikes me as a nastier surprise than seeing it relatively soon after its posting. You could argue that it would create RP, but as a bard, I wouldn't really want to be asked repeatedly 'Is there a rumor about me today? Now is there a rumor about me?' etc.
It also has a negative side effect of its own... without being able to purchase a rumor about yourself, you will not be able to comment on it. So not only will you become aware of the rumor after its posting, you will be unable to answer the rumor.
I personally derive a large part of my amusement and fun from the rumor system in reading the rumors about my PC and then adding slanderous comments that insult myself. That option would be entirely removed by this change.
The other changes I am 100% in favor of. Expanding the rumor system is awesome - I'm just not so sure about contracting it.
Agree with Dice on this. Love all the other changes, especially the greater length - I admit to often having trouble fitting them in, less keen on not being able to hear rumors about yourself. I find they greatly add to my RP, and provide hooks into scenes.
I admit it would be perhaps -harder- to find rumors about yourself so I'd be okay with being more expensive to buy rumors about yourself but not impossible.
I don't think it would help elevate the OOC frustrations some people have hearing less favourable rumors about their characters.
I admit it would be perhaps -harder- to find rumors about yourself so I'd be okay with being more expensive to buy rumors about yourself but not impossible.
I don't think it would help elevate the OOC frustrations some people have hearing less favourable rumors about their characters.
Julea/Lien/Ashe/Adaline
Notice you also can't see rumors that you've posted yourself about yourself.
Often as I go about my RP doing things, if I think it is something that might be talked about, I'll do a rumor about it and enjoy seeing the responses and being able to react to it in RP and the resulting RP it stirs up.
For example, a rumor I posted today consisted of:
Saw tha' there drunken fool disrespectin' tha' Lady Zadossa in tha middle of Church Square. An' she had Reeve Porter take him to the stocks and lashed right quick! Cried like a baby he did!
It referenced my character Lien, Regilus, Grady and Alric in the subject.
But, I admit it's discouraging (and actually now puts me off posting rumors about what my character is up to) if I am not be able to see and react to and use in RP the resulting responses to that.
Often as I go about my RP doing things, if I think it is something that might be talked about, I'll do a rumor about it and enjoy seeing the responses and being able to react to it in RP and the resulting RP it stirs up.
For example, a rumor I posted today consisted of:
Saw tha' there drunken fool disrespectin' tha' Lady Zadossa in tha middle of Church Square. An' she had Reeve Porter take him to the stocks and lashed right quick! Cried like a baby he did!
It referenced my character Lien, Regilus, Grady and Alric in the subject.
But, I admit it's discouraging (and actually now puts me off posting rumors about what my character is up to) if I am not be able to see and react to and use in RP the resulting responses to that.
Julea/Lien/Ashe/Adaline
I love changes 1, 2, and 4. I'm agnostic about 3, because I don't know what "serious angst people who are the subject of rumors have experienced" consists of.
I recently played on a MUD with in-game boards that stretched back I think 4 RL years. I played a scholar, so I dove into them and unearthed dozens of cool stories: most of them irrelevant, or resolved in ways I didn't know, but it was still hugely fun to drag back old plots and dead PCs, and offered endless hooks for RP. Having a sort of persistent institutional memory like that can be very valuable. And makes sense. Cities--even ones as small as Lithmore--often have long and detailed communal memories.
If I play a Martin Luther type, nailing my 95 Thesis to the door of the Cathedral, that's not something that rumor really handles, is it? And it's not an event on the scope of the mage attack. Is there a place for that level of event in the game, such that it won't be utterly forgotten seven seconds after a PC stops pushing it?
That's one of my favorite 'sizes' of RP. Not the huge events. Not passing rumors. (Though rumors are hugely fun.) But the seeds of things that just might, over time, grow into something larger. I'm not seeing how one can 'plant' those here, without a different kind of board. But maybe there's a way, if one uses QP or something, to add long-term, if not nearly permanent, messages to the world?
I recently played on a MUD with in-game boards that stretched back I think 4 RL years. I played a scholar, so I dove into them and unearthed dozens of cool stories: most of them irrelevant, or resolved in ways I didn't know, but it was still hugely fun to drag back old plots and dead PCs, and offered endless hooks for RP. Having a sort of persistent institutional memory like that can be very valuable. And makes sense. Cities--even ones as small as Lithmore--often have long and detailed communal memories.
If I play a Martin Luther type, nailing my 95 Thesis to the door of the Cathedral, that's not something that rumor really handles, is it? And it's not an event on the scope of the mage attack. Is there a place for that level of event in the game, such that it won't be utterly forgotten seven seconds after a PC stops pushing it?
That's one of my favorite 'sizes' of RP. Not the huge events. Not passing rumors. (Though rumors are hugely fun.) But the seeds of things that just might, over time, grow into something larger. I'm not seeing how one can 'plant' those here, without a different kind of board. But maybe there's a way, if one uses QP or something, to add long-term, if not nearly permanent, messages to the world?
The sort of thing that you are interested in seems like it is well suited to City Lore. This is a skill that allows you to look at the stories that we have implanted into the history of a certain room. The more skill it takes to see it, the juicier the story is, and we can break it up so that different portions appear at different skill. We made sure to add a bunch of old lore stories into the new grid when we moved over a few months ago, and we are always glad to add more stories (ones that really happened in RP or come from the imaginations of players and could have happened), if you just send them to staff. The only trouble is that the stories do need to be submitted, and the system doesn't seem to get as much love from players as we would like to see.
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