What can we do to make people who envision playing agile, clever characters more 'slippery' without making them setting up an extreme situation where bad guys (who are doing naughty, sometimes terrible things) become untouchable?
Right now in place are a few more reasonable things, like:
- People cannot be arrested or detained unless someone is standing reasonably close to them in a room.
- There are spells to deter successful attack/arrest (blacking out a room, sanctuary)
But what else is reasonable to add? What isn't?
My point of view is that we generally do make it so that, once caught, without using QP and getting staff intervention, a bad guy is pretty secure. We cannot make things like 'escape your bonds skills' because with a binary success/failure result, the fact is that all bad guys would learn a skill like this, to grandmaster levels, then be out of bonds again, making it not worthwhile to pursue them at all and damaging the law-side's play experience to the extreme. Thus, sacrosanct for me would be the stance that 'once caught', bad guys are pretty secure provided their captors do the right things.
Also, is it everyone's view that this is the right place to fiddle? Tell us on the poll!
"Slippery" Bad Guys
I don't want to step on toes, but personally, I don't think this is a 'code wise need a way for escapes problems' or even a code 'needs balance' problem. This has largely been a RP problem. And with the Brotherhood being illegal, and "associations" the easiest an laziest thing to get arrested for because they can just claim "You were talking to so and so, therefore, you are one too!", there isn't any reason at all to join the Brotherhood. In fact, there's pretty darn good reason NOT to, because it's illegal. Better to do your slippery things on your own.
There's just no reasonable way to be slippery. Throw some rumors up to get interest? Your location gets raided. Multiple times. Start a business down there? Pick up an arrest for treason.
I'm not saying that the goodie two shoes of Lithmore need to ignore or let people run rampant, but people need some serious filters on. They hear a rumor? Would your character even LISTEN or anything that's happening in the South Side or give two toots about it? Or would this actually be something that's ever said to you? It's a legitimate thing to consider.
If raids don't require significant RPA and a hefty bill to the guild (hazard pay for all those people grouping down to help you, natch!) then they should. The pay isn't really a barrier, because guilds are ridiculously rich, but it could at least be a point of counter-rp, especially if the raid is unsuccessful.
I want to be clear: I'm using those examples because I've experience with them. I'm not harping on that RP. I'm totes over it, ICly and OOCly. But it's an example of how high the barrier is to these characters for generating any sort of minor interest at all. And it restricts people from using areas in the game - the South Side - that are supposed to be set aside so these types of characters have a chance of flourishing.
As to the illegal thing, I get it, but honestly, for a slippery type, there's no reason to join. If you're GOOD at the slippery thing, then an investigation is going to have to be made to nail you - some kind of proof, so it becomes how well you can hide vs. how well they can unravel it. That's hard. Association isn't as hard to find out ICly or OOCly. So that's what people are going to go down for. I've seen less and less of an IC/OOC divide lately (more and more OOC chatter in tells and on channels) and no matter what people tell me, I'm just not comfortable taking that risk with a covert, who I know will instantly enter that chatter. Frankly, just posting here with thoughts on slippery characters makes me uncomfortable, given the above.
I haven't been to any OOC meetings, so I don't know what the punishments from the Reeves for Brotherhood Association, but if it isn't, it'd be nice if that was somehow defined, because a vague "Oh, people won't die for that!" isn't really reassuring because ten to one, people are going to die for it. I have legitimately no idea what sort of risk it carries to be in the Brotherhood - am I just going to get branded or am I going to be beheaded? Or is it up to whoever arrests me (in which case, it could be either?) If I knew, then maybe I wouldn't mind taking the risk of association.
Anyway, my two cents. :)
There's just no reasonable way to be slippery. Throw some rumors up to get interest? Your location gets raided. Multiple times. Start a business down there? Pick up an arrest for treason.
I'm not saying that the goodie two shoes of Lithmore need to ignore or let people run rampant, but people need some serious filters on. They hear a rumor? Would your character even LISTEN or anything that's happening in the South Side or give two toots about it? Or would this actually be something that's ever said to you? It's a legitimate thing to consider.
If raids don't require significant RPA and a hefty bill to the guild (hazard pay for all those people grouping down to help you, natch!) then they should. The pay isn't really a barrier, because guilds are ridiculously rich, but it could at least be a point of counter-rp, especially if the raid is unsuccessful.
I want to be clear: I'm using those examples because I've experience with them. I'm not harping on that RP. I'm totes over it, ICly and OOCly. But it's an example of how high the barrier is to these characters for generating any sort of minor interest at all. And it restricts people from using areas in the game - the South Side - that are supposed to be set aside so these types of characters have a chance of flourishing.
As to the illegal thing, I get it, but honestly, for a slippery type, there's no reason to join. If you're GOOD at the slippery thing, then an investigation is going to have to be made to nail you - some kind of proof, so it becomes how well you can hide vs. how well they can unravel it. That's hard. Association isn't as hard to find out ICly or OOCly. So that's what people are going to go down for. I've seen less and less of an IC/OOC divide lately (more and more OOC chatter in tells and on channels) and no matter what people tell me, I'm just not comfortable taking that risk with a covert, who I know will instantly enter that chatter. Frankly, just posting here with thoughts on slippery characters makes me uncomfortable, given the above.
I haven't been to any OOC meetings, so I don't know what the punishments from the Reeves for Brotherhood Association, but if it isn't, it'd be nice if that was somehow defined, because a vague "Oh, people won't die for that!" isn't really reassuring because ten to one, people are going to die for it. I have legitimately no idea what sort of risk it carries to be in the Brotherhood - am I just going to get branded or am I going to be beheaded? Or is it up to whoever arrests me (in which case, it could be either?) If I knew, then maybe I wouldn't mind taking the risk of association.
Anyway, my two cents. :)
It's reassuring, at this point, to see that there's as much support for sneakies coming from the law as there is from the sneakies. Given the current state of the game's mechanics, a sneaky absolutely requires the players of the law to be on board with the idea that the bad guys can and will do stuff, and then ultimately get away to plague them another day. If the law wants me, they got me. That's just how the code works.
I've heard a lot of comments about role-playing and doing stuff in character, but there's one thing I have to bring up. Game mechanics, in this case the code, exist to resolve conflicts between players. We are playing an adult version of cops & robbers. "Bang bang. I shot you!" is all well and good, but eventually one kid says, "No you didn't! You missed!" What next? Everybody has their own version of how the story is supposed to unfold. Who's story is right? How do we determine what actually happens next?
Realize, for a moment, that PCs are made instantly aware of all other PCs present when they enter a room. The look command automatically fires upon entry. How many times over the course of your life have you entered an area and simply not seen someone? Someone who wasn't making any effort to be sneaky, you just didn't see them. "But there's VNPCs and they shouldn't always notice you!" is an argument that doesn't hold any water. Sekunder's still dead, guys. Now, Gavin's one of the players who, in my experience, actually would walk in and say, "You know what? I think I haven't noticed you. Keep doing what you're doing." When the chips were down, the one time it really mattered, Gavin noticed Sekunder being shady and suspicious.
Automatic perception killed the Tenebrae. Now, I'm not proposing that it should be taken away. You're informed of everyone present in a room upon entry so that the players can all know who's present to role-play with. There is a good reason to tell everybody exactly who's in the room. The vast majority of time, there's nothing sneaky going on. I just want to point out that there is a coded bias against the sneaky types. It's something we all take for granted, and really don't even think about, but it got a PC killed.
I've run afoul of this, too. I'll explain shortly.
There's an additional problem with stealth in that it doesn't work. Simply put, the hide skill is broken. It takes repeated attempts to use it successfully. I typically figure it's going to take me three tries to get it right for any given situation I want to use it. Hide is also one of the two skills I have learn mastered.
By comparison, every other skill I've got has succeeded reliably since it was rated in the teens. Peek and Consider would work, and give me useful information. They didn't work all the time, and they failed enough that I was accustomed to failure, but I generally expected success. More times than not, I would succeed. The languages I have at 25 allow me to hold entire conversations. I have yet to see lockpicking fail. I can not say that for Hide. When I use Hide, I expect to fail.
I don't even care why it fails. I don't! It doesn't matter at all what penalties I might be accruing for various rooms, or the time of day I'm trying to hide. At this point, the only thing that matters to me is that my highest ranked skill is the only one where I expect failure. That is absolutely unacceptable for a skill I've spent 1000 experience and a precious learn master slot on.
Even if Hide worked right, which it doesn't, it doesn't do what I need it to do. Hide is a premeditated skill. You use it when you know someone's coming several minutes in advance, and you want to eavesdrop on their conversation. There is no skill for, "Oh crap! Someone's coming!" Hide takes about 10 seconds to complete, and it spams the room with messages. That's not an emergency plan. Sneak can hide the spam from other players, but it doesn't shorten up the time to complete Hide. Furthermore, there are so many Sneak checks made during the course of a Hide action that one of them is probably going to fail and everyone off. (These problems are exacerbated by needing to attempt several Hide actions).
Hide is broken by nearly every action. You can't do anything while you are hiding. You can't change equipment. Brotherhood members typically have two cloaks, so that people don't recognize us when we're concealed. I'd like to be able to hide somewhere and switch without being seen, rather than having someone accidentally walk by and catch me getting my sneaky cloak on. This may not seem like a big deal to some of you, but that's because you aren't the ones risking being outed as Brotherhood just because you changed clothes.
You also can't move while hiding. I realize why. Hide is considered to be you standing still. However, a burglar needs some mechanism for stealthily moving through a building. That skill doesn't exist. Sneak only lets you enter and exit areas without people getting a message, and it fails against doors. Those always get opened and tip off the occupants of a room. Consider that most rooms in a building are blocked by doors, and you begin to see the problem.
Furthermore, while players have perfect passive perception upon entering a room, sneakies receive no warning that someone is coming. There is the scan command, which incidentally I didn't know about until Gavin told me, but that's active. It also doesn't see through closed doors. So a sneaky has to guess whether someone's coming. Unfortunately, once you hide you then have to stop moving through the environment.
As a sneaky character, I have to be completely on my game in every way. Not only that, I have to be on top of my game in a position of high stress. That door can open at any moment, and I'm sunk. I get no warning, and I have no way to predict when it's going to happen. All it takes is for someone to walk in the room. If you can't see how lopsided that is, I don't think this discussion can go anywhere.
That is exactly what happened to me, by the way. I was dropped into Alhalin Tower with a broken bag of tricks. Every single door was closed and locked. A Reeve was walking through, back to the prison area, because that's where the action was. They had no idea I was there. They blindly stumbled in, and there I was. They were immediately aware of my presence, and there was nothing I could do about it. I have no idea where Sekunder came up with all the QP for that escape attempt, but it was all wasted. The mere presence of a PC ended my run at stealth. I spent 10 QP just so I could get caught and have a prisoner interrogation scene. I was robbed, because I never had a ghost of a chance.
Other issues I have is that many of the other skills are lackluster. Steal, for instance, is kind of a hassle to use. I understand the purpose is to provoke additional role-playing rather than resolve the entire ordeal with a command, but no other skill works that way. Moreover, because of the way it's set up, the Steal skill really can't be practiced like others can. Especially because its use alerts the Reeves. Lockpicking is kind of nice, but most of the locks I want to pick are behind xblocks. These are separate issues from "slipperiness" but I want to have them noted.
I've heard a lot of comments about role-playing and doing stuff in character, but there's one thing I have to bring up. Game mechanics, in this case the code, exist to resolve conflicts between players. We are playing an adult version of cops & robbers. "Bang bang. I shot you!" is all well and good, but eventually one kid says, "No you didn't! You missed!" What next? Everybody has their own version of how the story is supposed to unfold. Who's story is right? How do we determine what actually happens next?
Realize, for a moment, that PCs are made instantly aware of all other PCs present when they enter a room. The look command automatically fires upon entry. How many times over the course of your life have you entered an area and simply not seen someone? Someone who wasn't making any effort to be sneaky, you just didn't see them. "But there's VNPCs and they shouldn't always notice you!" is an argument that doesn't hold any water. Sekunder's still dead, guys. Now, Gavin's one of the players who, in my experience, actually would walk in and say, "You know what? I think I haven't noticed you. Keep doing what you're doing." When the chips were down, the one time it really mattered, Gavin noticed Sekunder being shady and suspicious.
Automatic perception killed the Tenebrae. Now, I'm not proposing that it should be taken away. You're informed of everyone present in a room upon entry so that the players can all know who's present to role-play with. There is a good reason to tell everybody exactly who's in the room. The vast majority of time, there's nothing sneaky going on. I just want to point out that there is a coded bias against the sneaky types. It's something we all take for granted, and really don't even think about, but it got a PC killed.
I've run afoul of this, too. I'll explain shortly.
There's an additional problem with stealth in that it doesn't work. Simply put, the hide skill is broken. It takes repeated attempts to use it successfully. I typically figure it's going to take me three tries to get it right for any given situation I want to use it. Hide is also one of the two skills I have learn mastered.
By comparison, every other skill I've got has succeeded reliably since it was rated in the teens. Peek and Consider would work, and give me useful information. They didn't work all the time, and they failed enough that I was accustomed to failure, but I generally expected success. More times than not, I would succeed. The languages I have at 25 allow me to hold entire conversations. I have yet to see lockpicking fail. I can not say that for Hide. When I use Hide, I expect to fail.
I don't even care why it fails. I don't! It doesn't matter at all what penalties I might be accruing for various rooms, or the time of day I'm trying to hide. At this point, the only thing that matters to me is that my highest ranked skill is the only one where I expect failure. That is absolutely unacceptable for a skill I've spent 1000 experience and a precious learn master slot on.
Even if Hide worked right, which it doesn't, it doesn't do what I need it to do. Hide is a premeditated skill. You use it when you know someone's coming several minutes in advance, and you want to eavesdrop on their conversation. There is no skill for, "Oh crap! Someone's coming!" Hide takes about 10 seconds to complete, and it spams the room with messages. That's not an emergency plan. Sneak can hide the spam from other players, but it doesn't shorten up the time to complete Hide. Furthermore, there are so many Sneak checks made during the course of a Hide action that one of them is probably going to fail and everyone off. (These problems are exacerbated by needing to attempt several Hide actions).
Hide is broken by nearly every action. You can't do anything while you are hiding. You can't change equipment. Brotherhood members typically have two cloaks, so that people don't recognize us when we're concealed. I'd like to be able to hide somewhere and switch without being seen, rather than having someone accidentally walk by and catch me getting my sneaky cloak on. This may not seem like a big deal to some of you, but that's because you aren't the ones risking being outed as Brotherhood just because you changed clothes.
You also can't move while hiding. I realize why. Hide is considered to be you standing still. However, a burglar needs some mechanism for stealthily moving through a building. That skill doesn't exist. Sneak only lets you enter and exit areas without people getting a message, and it fails against doors. Those always get opened and tip off the occupants of a room. Consider that most rooms in a building are blocked by doors, and you begin to see the problem.
Furthermore, while players have perfect passive perception upon entering a room, sneakies receive no warning that someone is coming. There is the scan command, which incidentally I didn't know about until Gavin told me, but that's active. It also doesn't see through closed doors. So a sneaky has to guess whether someone's coming. Unfortunately, once you hide you then have to stop moving through the environment.
As a sneaky character, I have to be completely on my game in every way. Not only that, I have to be on top of my game in a position of high stress. That door can open at any moment, and I'm sunk. I get no warning, and I have no way to predict when it's going to happen. All it takes is for someone to walk in the room. If you can't see how lopsided that is, I don't think this discussion can go anywhere.
That is exactly what happened to me, by the way. I was dropped into Alhalin Tower with a broken bag of tricks. Every single door was closed and locked. A Reeve was walking through, back to the prison area, because that's where the action was. They had no idea I was there. They blindly stumbled in, and there I was. They were immediately aware of my presence, and there was nothing I could do about it. I have no idea where Sekunder came up with all the QP for that escape attempt, but it was all wasted. The mere presence of a PC ended my run at stealth. I spent 10 QP just so I could get caught and have a prisoner interrogation scene. I was robbed, because I never had a ghost of a chance.
Other issues I have is that many of the other skills are lackluster. Steal, for instance, is kind of a hassle to use. I understand the purpose is to provoke additional role-playing rather than resolve the entire ordeal with a command, but no other skill works that way. Moreover, because of the way it's set up, the Steal skill really can't be practiced like others can. Especially because its use alerts the Reeves. Lockpicking is kind of nice, but most of the locks I want to pick are behind xblocks. These are separate issues from "slipperiness" but I want to have them noted.
100% agree on hide. For what it's worth, as a counter to hide, it's ridiculously move-expensive to do quarter thorough. So far as I can tell, quarter by itself is pretty much useless, so you have to do quarter thorough, and doing it twice will generally wipe me of my moves. I don't have the highest con/str, but that seems overkill.
Corolinth, I see you have many points, but it's a bit hard to read them through the clutter of the emotion herein. Please try to step back a bit when posting because I want to help you resolve these issues for the benefit of the game, but what I hear with the way you write is 'Staff have this all wrong, and they're not fixing it fast enough, and it SUCKS'... I hope that's not how you feel and that this expression is a simple byproduct of genuine passion for our game.
Please note: There are five staff and only one programmer and one designer on TI. We very much have the game and its pbase's best interests at heart and want the game to be the best it can be, but we -are- limited in resources to eventuate these things. Right now, our primary focus is break/fix (crashes and game crippling bugs) and Rumor code.
Okay, so some points raised for notice, please correct me if I'm wrong:
- Hide as it currently exists is poorly written because:
----- You cannot move while hiding.
----- Hiding takes some time and spams the room.
----- Other people can come upon you unawares whilst trying to hide, so it's rarely a timely skill.
----- Apparently the hide algorithm fails particularly often.
The hide algorithm has been bugged and we're looking at its failure and success rate. I'll make a few notes to update it so that it takes a shorter time to hide, maybe make it instantaneous (though I still think there should be a message to the room). Finally, if we have a problem with people not being aware that someone is coming, maybe we can add code to give people a chance to notice someone approaching much like we give people a flash of people coming by through windows? Is there more we can do?
- Sneak similarly has problems because:
----- It only works moving from room to room instead of inside a room?
----- ... other?
Should sneak and hide perhaps be combined?
- Steal
----- Partial successes and successes aren't accounted for in the overarching "report to Reeves" code.
Re: Quartering - I agree, it's a nuisance. Probably a low priority one at the moment, however.
Please note: There are five staff and only one programmer and one designer on TI. We very much have the game and its pbase's best interests at heart and want the game to be the best it can be, but we -are- limited in resources to eventuate these things. Right now, our primary focus is break/fix (crashes and game crippling bugs) and Rumor code.
Okay, so some points raised for notice, please correct me if I'm wrong:
- Hide as it currently exists is poorly written because:
----- You cannot move while hiding.
----- Hiding takes some time and spams the room.
----- Other people can come upon you unawares whilst trying to hide, so it's rarely a timely skill.
----- Apparently the hide algorithm fails particularly often.
The hide algorithm has been bugged and we're looking at its failure and success rate. I'll make a few notes to update it so that it takes a shorter time to hide, maybe make it instantaneous (though I still think there should be a message to the room). Finally, if we have a problem with people not being aware that someone is coming, maybe we can add code to give people a chance to notice someone approaching much like we give people a flash of people coming by through windows? Is there more we can do?
- Sneak similarly has problems because:
----- It only works moving from room to room instead of inside a room?
----- ... other?
Should sneak and hide perhaps be combined?
- Steal
----- Partial successes and successes aren't accounted for in the overarching "report to Reeves" code.
Re: Quartering - I agree, it's a nuisance. Probably a low priority one at the moment, however.
One of the things I would suggest is changing it so that the echoes when an unlawful act in certain areas are less common, for example:
- between the hours of say, 9pm and 6am, no Reeve announce echoes (or reduced). It's night time, it's harder to see and less people around.
- if you're hidden/sneaking, then do a skill check before doing a Reeve announce
- during the daylight hours, don't make it a given 100% announcement to Reeves, maybe 50% or a skill/stat check? To at least allow for some chance/risk. Possibly a check against charisma? Or dex?
Just some ideas that might help.
- between the hours of say, 9pm and 6am, no Reeve announce echoes (or reduced). It's night time, it's harder to see and less people around.
- if you're hidden/sneaking, then do a skill check before doing a Reeve announce
- during the daylight hours, don't make it a given 100% announcement to Reeves, maybe 50% or a skill/stat check? To at least allow for some chance/risk. Possibly a check against charisma? Or dex?
Just some ideas that might help.
I think, perhaps, you read more emotion than is present. If you are going to seriously propose changes to make certain characters more slippery, then I have to tell you what I'm dealing with when I use these mechanics. While making characters more slippery is a change that could stand to happen, it is currently a band-aid solution for characters simply being too easy to catch in the first place. Moreover, more people than just the staff are reading this. Most of them aren't playing sneaky gits, and don't deal with the stealth mechanics. Some of the things I'm going to propose sound ridiculous if you don't know why I'm asking, which is why you had to see that post first.
Here's a proposed list. Some of these changes are general reworkings of the code that benefit everybody:
-Toggleable passive perception
-New Perception skill
-Hide/Sneak rolled into one skill (Stealth)
-Everyone to receive Stealth at the higher of the two respective skills
-Everyone to be refunded exp for the lower of the two respective skills
-Moving while Hiding at Master+
-Opening doors unnoticed while Sneaking (should be difficult)
-Reduce the number of Sneak skill checks made
First and foremost, there needs to be some capacity for characters to listen to their surroundings. You need to be able to hear someone moving three rooms away. Any fewer than three doesn't leave a stealthy character enough time to react. Any more than three is probably too much of a stretch to justify. Messages about walking through a room, or entering/leaving a room need to be broadcast out of those rooms, minus the associated name, similar to how the yell command works. To prevent massive quantities of spam, this needs to be an option that other players can toggle off.
When you do this, you then have to understand that you're creating an arms race. All Reeves are going to take sneak to 25 so that they can move quietly and prevent stealth characters from getting a chance to respond. Therefore, there will probably need to be some sort of perception skill. Again, realize that all Reeves will take it so that they can catch hiding stealth characters. Such a perception skill will have to be a Brotherhood guildskill, so that the law can't take it up to 75 and automatically foil all attempts at stealth. Neither response from the law, either learning sneak or learning a skill to notice sneaky people, is entirely unreasonable. Actually, the Reeves should be doing that, and I bet some of them would think it's really cool to have a reason to Sneak. However, you need to give the stealthy types some sort of an edge there. (By the way, this solution would also address Wimple's point about the quarter command).
Sneak and Hide are so intertwined with one another that they should be rolled into one skill. You really can't have one without the other. You still want them as separate commands, however. One should be able to move while hidden, provided they are sneaking. A barrier to entry should be placed on this aspect of the skill. Moving while hidden should be the sole purview of master-level stealth. You should also allow stealth to give a chance for someone to open and close doors without being noticed. It should be difficult to do, requiring a skill above 25 to pull off reliably. Right now, a door defeats grandmaster stealth. A door opening lets everyone inside know they need to quarter thorough.
Ten seconds to hide is probably okay if you're able to get some early warning letting you know you need to do it. Maybe it could stand to be chopped down a bit. Maybe that could be something that having a high rating does. This is a detail that should be tabled for later, after seeing how the increased perception helps out.
Right now, it seems like Sneak is checked at every message in the Hide chain. This is a bit excessive. Sneak is also checked at every step through a room. I'm not suggesting that simply turning on Sneak should allow someone to move with impunity, but don't forget that making lots of checks is akin to using the brute force method to crack a password. Eventually you're going to get it. I don't really have any ideas to propose about how to change it at the moment.
I have some thoughts on "slippery" but they're less formed than my ideas on simply avoiding detection. I am convinced that Sekunder's attempt to murder Gavin was borne from his two previous attempts to flee. Obviously I can not speak for the player, however he had tried to flee twice, and it simply did not work. The third time, it was just time to try something new. The fact that he was packing a sleeping poison tells you he'd given up on being able to flee. I told both Gavin and Kinaed in tells that, had I been Sekunder, I'd have attacked Gavin with temijul, too. Running away just isn't working, I have to kill him.
With that in mind, I'd like to point out that increasing a sneaky character's ability to be "slippery" would reduce bloodshed. When I'm caught, and I feel flight is not a viable option, I have to pick something else. My options have basically become fight or talk. Fighting probably ends in a PC death. When my weapons come out, the law expects I intend to kill them. Now, as it stands, the Brotherhood characters simply aren't a match for the Reeves in a fight, most of them are going to be brand new characters, so that PC death is probably going to be the thief.
I am approaching the concept of a slippery criminal from the view that I would like an option other than "talk my way out of it" that doesn't likely result in my death. Keep in mind, I'm trying to be covert, and talking is inevitably going to require me to uncloak and reveal myself. Given that Brotherhood association is illegal and penalized with slavery as per the king's order, all three of my options (fight, flee, talk) are currently losing propositions.
Here's a proposed list. Some of these changes are general reworkings of the code that benefit everybody:
-Toggleable passive perception
-New Perception skill
-Hide/Sneak rolled into one skill (Stealth)
-Everyone to receive Stealth at the higher of the two respective skills
-Everyone to be refunded exp for the lower of the two respective skills
-Moving while Hiding at Master+
-Opening doors unnoticed while Sneaking (should be difficult)
-Reduce the number of Sneak skill checks made
First and foremost, there needs to be some capacity for characters to listen to their surroundings. You need to be able to hear someone moving three rooms away. Any fewer than three doesn't leave a stealthy character enough time to react. Any more than three is probably too much of a stretch to justify. Messages about walking through a room, or entering/leaving a room need to be broadcast out of those rooms, minus the associated name, similar to how the yell command works. To prevent massive quantities of spam, this needs to be an option that other players can toggle off.
When you do this, you then have to understand that you're creating an arms race. All Reeves are going to take sneak to 25 so that they can move quietly and prevent stealth characters from getting a chance to respond. Therefore, there will probably need to be some sort of perception skill. Again, realize that all Reeves will take it so that they can catch hiding stealth characters. Such a perception skill will have to be a Brotherhood guildskill, so that the law can't take it up to 75 and automatically foil all attempts at stealth. Neither response from the law, either learning sneak or learning a skill to notice sneaky people, is entirely unreasonable. Actually, the Reeves should be doing that, and I bet some of them would think it's really cool to have a reason to Sneak. However, you need to give the stealthy types some sort of an edge there. (By the way, this solution would also address Wimple's point about the quarter command).
Sneak and Hide are so intertwined with one another that they should be rolled into one skill. You really can't have one without the other. You still want them as separate commands, however. One should be able to move while hidden, provided they are sneaking. A barrier to entry should be placed on this aspect of the skill. Moving while hidden should be the sole purview of master-level stealth. You should also allow stealth to give a chance for someone to open and close doors without being noticed. It should be difficult to do, requiring a skill above 25 to pull off reliably. Right now, a door defeats grandmaster stealth. A door opening lets everyone inside know they need to quarter thorough.
Ten seconds to hide is probably okay if you're able to get some early warning letting you know you need to do it. Maybe it could stand to be chopped down a bit. Maybe that could be something that having a high rating does. This is a detail that should be tabled for later, after seeing how the increased perception helps out.
Right now, it seems like Sneak is checked at every message in the Hide chain. This is a bit excessive. Sneak is also checked at every step through a room. I'm not suggesting that simply turning on Sneak should allow someone to move with impunity, but don't forget that making lots of checks is akin to using the brute force method to crack a password. Eventually you're going to get it. I don't really have any ideas to propose about how to change it at the moment.
I have some thoughts on "slippery" but they're less formed than my ideas on simply avoiding detection. I am convinced that Sekunder's attempt to murder Gavin was borne from his two previous attempts to flee. Obviously I can not speak for the player, however he had tried to flee twice, and it simply did not work. The third time, it was just time to try something new. The fact that he was packing a sleeping poison tells you he'd given up on being able to flee. I told both Gavin and Kinaed in tells that, had I been Sekunder, I'd have attacked Gavin with temijul, too. Running away just isn't working, I have to kill him.
With that in mind, I'd like to point out that increasing a sneaky character's ability to be "slippery" would reduce bloodshed. When I'm caught, and I feel flight is not a viable option, I have to pick something else. My options have basically become fight or talk. Fighting probably ends in a PC death. When my weapons come out, the law expects I intend to kill them. Now, as it stands, the Brotherhood characters simply aren't a match for the Reeves in a fight, most of them are going to be brand new characters, so that PC death is probably going to be the thief.
I am approaching the concept of a slippery criminal from the view that I would like an option other than "talk my way out of it" that doesn't likely result in my death. Keep in mind, I'm trying to be covert, and talking is inevitably going to require me to uncloak and reveal myself. Given that Brotherhood association is illegal and penalized with slavery as per the king's order, all three of my options (fight, flee, talk) are currently losing propositions.
-
- Information
-
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 149 guests