Since Julea's death, we've had a slew of interesting requests, and a personal appeal from Julea's player herself that came last night.
One of the reasons, and probably the main reason, Julea's death wasn't nulled or an alternative ending supplied was that we felt it wasn't TI-acceptable to the pbase. We've since then made preparations and changes in policy to prepare people for how it will be in the future if PK policy wasn't followed. Even after having offered what would be massive compensation in TI terms, I still feel uncomfortable with the results - though I'm not sure I'd be any more comfortable or happy if Julea came back knowing that it'd definitely offend a few players. In short, we took the route that we felt most of the pbase would consider appropriate given standard TI culture and expectations.
However, are we wrong and just making assumptions about how the pbase at large feels about her return? Julea requested us to explore that question - and in the meantime, we've had at least one player request directly to us to bring her back. We've had another IC scenario passed to us from another player (who isn't Julea) on how she could 'still be alive' that appeared plausible, if somewhat daunting. These reactions are surprising me a bit, so I wonder what the true disposition of the pbase is on the matter.
Please, let us know.
Thank you!
Various Unorthodox Requests - Help the staff!
I've been staying out of this mess, but I think that I need to chime in, here.
Why is this even an issue for discussion? I don't mean to be unsympathetic, here, but characters die on TI. It is part of the landscape.
I have read the log. One thing that I don't understand is why Julea fled from the area, successfully, and then -came back-. At that point, any discussion of bugs, unfamiliarity with the combat code, or anything else is moot, because the character left, and then came back.
That decision didn't pay off. Further, any opportunity to talk her way into a reprieve or leniency or a pardon was sacrificed when she chose to go LD. I understand that the player was upset, and I sympathize, but that was a binary choice. There was probably a way to, at least, delay the execution - but that avenue was not taken.
To come back now and say, "She survived by a trick or an escape or magic" is a betrayal. This was the sort of escape that could have been pulled off on the grid, if it was planned for, or stats backed it up, or the stars aligned. Other characters have managed it. Some have attempted it and failed. But it is unfair to every one of them to whitewash the death in this situation.
There is little about this pdeath that is particularly different from most others. Sometimes, characters die due to misunderstandings. Other times, they die for political reasons. Sometimes they die to send a message, or because they didn't pay their debts. The constant is that we as players feel like the death has cut off great avenues of play. And that is to be expected, because until someone dies of old age on TI, characters will always be cut down in their prime. But part of playing in a game with permadeath and coded combat is that you know this is a possibility. It's what causes that surge of adrenaline from something as simple as a screen of text. And we have the code - cold, impartial, unbribeable code - as our thankless arbiter.
I have always been under the impression that, when all else fails, the code is law. Desc notes and changed short descs aside, people relied on the remember code to know that it was Julea. There are ways to change ones appearance, temporarily or permanently, codewise. They cost gold, or QP, but they exist. Which to me means that trying to achieve the same result without taking any coded measures borders on twinking.
The character was apprehended. There was not anything glaringly off about that apprehension, though I would love (as an aside) to see some IC reprisal from southsiders for the attack in force on their territory. But that's neither here nor there.
Apprehension was not the end, but it was treated as such by the player. I would be very unhappy to see that sort of RP avoidance rewarded with TI:L's first pdeath null.
I found the character very interesting, and she added a great deal of drama and intrigue to the grid. But now, that drama is leaking very heavily OOC, and I think it's time to move forward. No other character has gotten this extensive of a postmortem.
Why is this even an issue for discussion? I don't mean to be unsympathetic, here, but characters die on TI. It is part of the landscape.
I have read the log. One thing that I don't understand is why Julea fled from the area, successfully, and then -came back-. At that point, any discussion of bugs, unfamiliarity with the combat code, or anything else is moot, because the character left, and then came back.
That decision didn't pay off. Further, any opportunity to talk her way into a reprieve or leniency or a pardon was sacrificed when she chose to go LD. I understand that the player was upset, and I sympathize, but that was a binary choice. There was probably a way to, at least, delay the execution - but that avenue was not taken.
To come back now and say, "She survived by a trick or an escape or magic" is a betrayal. This was the sort of escape that could have been pulled off on the grid, if it was planned for, or stats backed it up, or the stars aligned. Other characters have managed it. Some have attempted it and failed. But it is unfair to every one of them to whitewash the death in this situation.
There is little about this pdeath that is particularly different from most others. Sometimes, characters die due to misunderstandings. Other times, they die for political reasons. Sometimes they die to send a message, or because they didn't pay their debts. The constant is that we as players feel like the death has cut off great avenues of play. And that is to be expected, because until someone dies of old age on TI, characters will always be cut down in their prime. But part of playing in a game with permadeath and coded combat is that you know this is a possibility. It's what causes that surge of adrenaline from something as simple as a screen of text. And we have the code - cold, impartial, unbribeable code - as our thankless arbiter.
I have always been under the impression that, when all else fails, the code is law. Desc notes and changed short descs aside, people relied on the remember code to know that it was Julea. There are ways to change ones appearance, temporarily or permanently, codewise. They cost gold, or QP, but they exist. Which to me means that trying to achieve the same result without taking any coded measures borders on twinking.
The character was apprehended. There was not anything glaringly off about that apprehension, though I would love (as an aside) to see some IC reprisal from southsiders for the attack in force on their territory. But that's neither here nor there.
Apprehension was not the end, but it was treated as such by the player. I would be very unhappy to see that sort of RP avoidance rewarded with TI:L's first pdeath null.
I found the character very interesting, and she added a great deal of drama and intrigue to the grid. But now, that drama is leaking very heavily OOC, and I think it's time to move forward. No other character has gotten this extensive of a postmortem.
The fleeing away, leaving combat, was accidental. I had done a navigate alms to check where it was in relation to where I was. As well as a few other places so I could look at options for where she would likely go to and what I could emote. I accidently hit j and then that's when the flee happened. I came back because I didn't meant to, I didn't want to twink. I sent messages to people telling then to osay I was on my way back. But I don't think they saw it because the moment I arrived back, everyone treated it IC and attacked. I admit I wish I had of just kept going. But I'm not that sort of player.
Her change of description and the like was roleplayed out.I didn't know that such should of been purchased with QP or I would of done so.
I quit out because I felt I had little choice, I had tried to talk to people about it through osays, tells and IMs but I hadn't achieved much of a response. I couldn't emote. I kept saying so and it was not picked up for several rounds. I had no experience with combat scenes like that, and it was like nothing I had ever encountered before on any kind of RPI before. I did not know how to deal with it. I am sorry I quit, but I tried everything I could to try resolve it, I am still largely a new player.
The only reason why I went link dead is because I was upset, frustrated and felt I wasn't being listened to when I tried to bring up the fact that I was having issues. I osay'd why I was doing it, waited for a response. I didn't just straight away do it.
I Did not do it to avoid consequences, I (almost) never fade a scene. And I can't remember ever having to drop link because of circumstances like this. I have no issue with people wanting her dead, or if she had of died through IC circumstances with a roleplayed scene, that would of been fantastic, but the OOC issues that plagued that scene and being unable to emote (due to code) for a fair chunk of it and everything else.. anyways.
Her change of description and the like was roleplayed out.I didn't know that such should of been purchased with QP or I would of done so.
I quit out because I felt I had little choice, I had tried to talk to people about it through osays, tells and IMs but I hadn't achieved much of a response. I couldn't emote. I kept saying so and it was not picked up for several rounds. I had no experience with combat scenes like that, and it was like nothing I had ever encountered before on any kind of RPI before. I did not know how to deal with it. I am sorry I quit, but I tried everything I could to try resolve it, I am still largely a new player.
The only reason why I went link dead is because I was upset, frustrated and felt I wasn't being listened to when I tried to bring up the fact that I was having issues. I osay'd why I was doing it, waited for a response. I didn't just straight away do it.
I Did not do it to avoid consequences, I (almost) never fade a scene. And I can't remember ever having to drop link because of circumstances like this. I have no issue with people wanting her dead, or if she had of died through IC circumstances with a roleplayed scene, that would of been fantastic, but the OOC issues that plagued that scene and being unable to emote (due to code) for a fair chunk of it and everything else.. anyways.
Julea/Lien/Ashe/Adaline
Thanks for the post, Clockwork.
Generally speaking, I think most TI players feel as you do - and a lot of the points you cited are why we offered compensation instead of a null when we felt the PK failed to meet policy guidelines. This said, you asked why it's being considered - it's being considered for the following reasons:
1) Julea said she believes that the pbase would support her return. I'm not a mind reader. I thought I knew it, but I wasn't sure. If I was wrong, and was severely upsetting the pbase with our decision, I'd like to know. We've had direct requests to bring her back that Julea herself did not instigate, so I was even more uncertain.
2) Julea asked. Quite simply, if someone approaches me with something, I'll consider it. Often, if the answer is no, I'll shut it down then and there, but given #1 - I felt better to ask than not... though I imagine if I'm getting weary of the inquiry, then so is everyone else - so I promise this is the last thread.
Finally, however, I do have one comment to make: Code is not king or law on TI. To quote our HELP POLICY RULES:
Generally speaking, I think most TI players feel as you do - and a lot of the points you cited are why we offered compensation instead of a null when we felt the PK failed to meet policy guidelines. This said, you asked why it's being considered - it's being considered for the following reasons:
1) Julea said she believes that the pbase would support her return. I'm not a mind reader. I thought I knew it, but I wasn't sure. If I was wrong, and was severely upsetting the pbase with our decision, I'd like to know. We've had direct requests to bring her back that Julea herself did not instigate, so I was even more uncertain.
2) Julea asked. Quite simply, if someone approaches me with something, I'll consider it. Often, if the answer is no, I'll shut it down then and there, but given #1 - I felt better to ask than not... though I imagine if I'm getting weary of the inquiry, then so is everyone else - so I promise this is the last thread.
Finally, however, I do have one comment to make: Code is not king or law on TI. To quote our HELP POLICY RULES:
That means that we would expect players to negotiate over things where there's disagreement about what the code does vs what is realistic. Players who cannot reach an agreement have 2 options - code or staff mediation.- Role-play is the sole defining purpose of TI Legacy. Everything
players do ICly must be backed up by RP, from buying items to
teaching to killing other players. If something changes your
character, it should be backed by role-play, be it their code status
or opinion. Players may ignore code constraints if they do not support
RP (for example, emote deaths, deciding if a person found a dagger
when searching you, etc, is completely acceptable), provided your
RP partners agree to allow it. Players are only constrained by code
when their RP partners are not amenable to it (usually in cases where
this confers an inappropriate advantage to another player).
Oh, one other thing - I don't think it's twinking to take measures to ICly disguise yourself when the code isn't in place to support it. I think it just means that you need to let people know what you did and work with RP partners to decide what it affects or doesn't affect.
My answer re: Geras's question would be different than my answer to the overall poll, and I think I might be not the only one who agrees. I don't feel it's appropriate to say she escaped death. But that doesn't mean that I'm against her coming back in any way, shape or form in any circumstance...
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