Mage Rec Levels and Risk Factors

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galaxgal
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Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:26 pm

This is a continuation of the discussion that spawned out of http://forums.ti-legacy.com/viewtopic.p ... 1&start=20 .

Despite being core to one of the theme's most iconic conflicts, Mages are an odd duck in contemporary TI. Theme states that they are hunted and oppressed, and there is an expectation that active mages generally have a high risk of death. As a limited and high-fatality role, mages in return are rewarded with unique character powers, veins of RP that no one else can access, and multiple special systems (although this has been scaled back somewhat with the removal of demon summoning.) Finally, they are allowed access to bonus recommended XP, and many players opt-in to magery for that alone.

Despite the latter bonus, and the role's limited nature mages are really never required to 'play as mages'. So long as you resist the urge to ever actually cast a spell or interact with another mage, you enjoy being nigh-undetectable* by the Order as well as effectively 'gaining' RPXP through reimbursement. This means that playing a 'passive' mage is extremely mechanically advantageous with few downsides. While I do not believe we should 'force' players to play a certain way, I feel that the current arrangement of incentives and disincentives around mages has actually served to discourage mage-related interaction and conflict.

Some potential options inclue:
  • Heightening the 'risk factor' of the being a passive mage somehow, allowing the Order to take a more proactive role
  • Adding more reason or incentive for 'aggressive' mage play, through reclevels, XP, or other rewards
  • Reconsidering the passive reclevel bonus for mages in the first place - they have many other benefits
For now, though, I want to leave things open for other players' comments, considerations, and experiences, whether on the above points or their own separate opinions on the state of mage activity.

EDIT: (*To be clear, yes, I'm aware of some options that exist in this realm - their limits generally mean they can't be used proactively, though. Trying to be vague to avoid spoiling things.)
Around sometimes. Contact: galaxgal#6174

mystry
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Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:08 am

Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:42 pm

I believe that aggressive mage play is discouraged on a meta level by how utterly entrenched and maxed out enemies of mages tend to be, with multiple body guard retainers, max tier weapons and armor, max combat skills, lots of wealth, lots of IC power that is simply given to them through the theme and their role and not earned from player charisma and IC relations, and more. In addition, magic is too easily nullified by a single item, making it nearly useless in an actual confrontation.

Additionally, I feel that the insistence on maintaining the 'status quo' of the Order being all powerful makes many mage characters and players feel like being aggressive and proactive and actively trying to be anti-Order is pointless, as not only are they unlikely to succeed, but even if they do, any gains they make will quickly vanish or be rectified.

I do not feel that additional reclevel for Mages is a problem.

These are my thoughts on the matters, though I don't claim to be an expert.

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Alpharius
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Discord Handle: kharonyx#0001

Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:57 pm

I think it's important to clarify 'aggressive mage play' does not necessarily mean 'go around attacking Knights, Inquisitors and Orderites'.

You can be active and aggressive without physically being there. Mages have all the power available to them to mess with players from rooms away, and give them RP. I don't think galaxgal means to say that mages should run into Queen's and invoke spells in public view. I think what she means is that mages should, with the power given to them that others do not have, give other people RP and chardev.

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galaxgal
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Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:39 pm

Alpharius has me right on the money, although if mages feel like they can never get even small, temporary victories, I do think that's an issue for them.

One thing I will add is that you don't have to be an Orderite to defeat most attempts to cast spells on you, and not all spells someone would want to cast on you cause fatal or even permanent physical damage. High-profile targets are safer than they've probably ever been on TI due to the prevalence of anti-mage items, even ones who aren't Order or even militant.
Around sometimes. Contact: galaxgal#6174

Sparkles
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Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:41 pm

I believe that aggressive mage play is discouraged on a meta level by how utterly entrenched and maxed out enemies of mages tend to be, with multiple body guard retainers, max tier weapons and armor, max combat skills, lots of wealth, lots of IC power that is simply given to them through the theme and their role and not earned from player charisma and IC relations, and more. In addition, magic is too easily nullified by a single item, making it nearly useless in an actual confrontation.
Judging player charisma (which isn't quantifiable and not everyone will agree) or the value of perceived IC social relationships and implying who did or didn't earn what has a potential to degrade the convo towards call outs on specific people and given that seems a common occurrence in Mage/Order convos I'd prefer we stick away from that.

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Alpharius
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Discord Handle: kharonyx#0001

Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:46 pm

To be honest, we had a mage player who for months evaded both the Order and Reeves while affecting players IC. I don't think mages aren't necessarily able to not win, just that I don't personally see many TRY to.

mystry
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Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:08 am

Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:49 pm

But did they truly 'win'? Did they make any real change? Or did they simply survive while being more of an IC annoyance than a threat?

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Alpharius
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Discord Handle: kharonyx#0001

Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:50 pm

mystry wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:49 pm
But did they truly 'win'? Did they make any real change? Or did they simply survive while being more of an IC annoyance than a threat?
What do you perceive as 'change' or 'winning'?

Because I don't think the theme of TI allows mages to truly 'change' the theme in any way. That's just the way it is.

But I can tell you they DID change a lot of characters' lives and affect them heavily that's now ingrained into their backstory.

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galaxgal
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Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:57 pm

I do know a few of the characters Alpharius mentions, and I would consider them successful. I do think that all of the successful mages I've known of tend to kind of do 'one thing' (no shade toward their players - they are some of the most inspiring and impactful characters I've met in TI) because that 'one thing' is the one that works reliably and consistently next to dozens of other toys that are now trivial to ignore or evade.
Around sometimes. Contact: galaxgal#6174

mystry
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:08 am

Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:19 pm

In the context of this type of game, I consider winning to be the accomplishment of IC goals and desires. For many mage characters, perhaps that is simple survival, in which case their passive behavior contributes to their 'winning'.

When I speak of change, I mean causing or influencing events to create a lasting, meaningful change. The Great Flood is an example of this. I would argue that mages are almost entirely restricted in making any real change to the game because of the fixed theme, and that the only change that is (occasionally) permitted to them is that which makes them look, for lack of a better word, 'bad' in the public eye.

I feel that this influences mage players to avoid taking aggressive and active playstyle, and adopt a more passive 'study the arcane in secret and never use it for anything' role.

Always remember that no one sees themselves as a villain, and very few people will make choices that they know are wrong. And even if they do, they'll still defend those choices because in their mind, it was the best option available to them at the time.

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