[Poll] Should Orderites be allowed to have mage alts?

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Should Orderites be allowed to have mage alts?

Poll ended at Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:04 pm

Yes
10
34%
No
19
66%
Maybe (comments below)
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 29
Khyran
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:30 pm
Discord Handle: Khyran#1419

Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:46 pm

Kitty wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:32 pm
They stopped allowing mages in the Order, as far as I understand, because the majority of the Order was made up of mages, and that didn't make a whole lot of sense. (Maybe I'm wrong, I wasn't here when that decision was made.)

The majority of the Order does not have mage alts - again, different situation, and I fail to understand why you keep harping on that particular point. It doesn't match.
There are multitudes of reasons for not allowing a mage to be in the Order. From an actual RP standpoint I disagree with it, but from a "We only have 2 members in the Order now because 3 of them were mages and so we've lost all our guild." I get it. Here's a scenario, totally theoretical. There are four members of the Order, one is online the other three are timezoned and sleeping (lol sleep.). There is some mage activity, but it involves the one online Orderites mage buddies. (Yes very specific example but I can give you tons of scenarios which is why I picked no) What do you do? Ignore mage activity as an Orderite to avoid crossover? You have to right? Even worse, the orderite acts on it and blatantly is caught (whether intentional or not) in some crossover to avoid exposing their alt.

Yes, a very specific example but it hits MY point. Do I think the mages in the Order is a direct comparison to this issue? No. Do I think the Reeves to BHood is directly related? No. Do I see similarities in what COULD happen because of the crossover policies in place? Yes. I do.

Temi
Posts: 359
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:22 pm

Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:47 pm

Staff did discuss that there was the potential of changing things going forwards, and not forcing anyone who is already in that situation to choose until the natural end of one character or the other, as one alternative to just putting this in and making a character unplayable.

Kitty
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:29 pm
Discord Handle: Kitty#2410

Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:56 pm

Temi wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:47 pm
Staff did discuss that there was the potential of changing things going forwards, and not forcing anyone who is already in that situation to choose until the natural end of one character or the other, as one alternative to just putting this in and making a character unplayable.
This reads as 'this is happening', so... why open it up to player debate?

I'm sorry, but as much as anyone can say, "This isn't targeted at anyone in particular," considering there are only two of us, this seems very much targeted. Honestly, probably not at me, because my mage isn't... well, probably wasn't even known that I play one until this discussion, but if I were Tasker, I'd feel very attacked.

My apologies if my tone is not the best. This has upset me greatly. Suspicion does not equal wrongdoing, and if the suspicions have come up dry and there has been no wrongdoing by investigation, why can we not lean to trusting the playerbase? I thought that was the rule - to trust that we are doing our best until proven otherwise. If Tasker and I have done nothing wrong, then why assume that other people in the future will and cannot be trusted?

Manus was removed, and even at the time Manus was removed, Orderites could have mages as long as they weren't Manus.

So, we are trying to fix a problem of suspicious players? I'm sorry, but... if someone breaks the rules, then chastise them. But... why punish players that take the care to make sure they aren't doing anything wrong (even if it is a case of making it only going forward, so future players)?
Last edited by Kitty on Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Khyran
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:30 pm
Discord Handle: Khyran#1419

Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:10 pm

Kitty wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:56 pm
Temi wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:47 pm
Staff did discuss that there was the potential of changing things going forwards, and not forcing anyone who is already in that situation to choose until the natural end of one character or the other, as one alternative to just putting this in and making a character unplayable.
I'm sorry, but as much as anyone can say, "This isn't targeted at anyone in particular," considering there are only two of us, this seems very much targeted. Honestly, probably not at me, because my mage isn't... well, probably wasn't even known that I play one until this discussion, but if I were Tasker, I'd feel very attacked.
And in the exact opposite side of things, just because you keep saying that you feel it is very targeted does not mean that it is. I have felt this way about mages and orderites for a long time. Before Tasker had a mage. This would be honestly far worse if there were more people in that situation.

Another fun situation for thought. two mages on, two orderites, one player happens to be one of each. Mage 1 and Orderite 1 find themselves in confrontation and both Mage 2 and Orderite 2 (Same person, different characters) get called in for backup. You can't pick both, so which do you pick? (Again another drunken scenario but still problematic to put oneself in)

The idea that Mages and the Order are the MAIN THEME of this game, they are literally the conflict on TIL are allowed to be played by both sides whether there is a Manus or not (I for one would love to see the Manus return, but, that's another forum topic) is not okay in my books. Do I think you or Tasker have done something to make me think this way? No. Do I have a thousand scenarios that make having one of each as alts/main a problem? Yes.

If you weren't playing one of each right now, would you be this upset? (Ignoring the grandfathering in idea) Be honest. I, as someone who has played both sides (more heavily the mage, or mage in the Order side) would not want to play both at the same time for the very obvious conflicts of interest, whether those ever materialize for ONE person or not, it is always a possibility and one that should NOT be a possibility. I trust the pbase, but when the system provides a means for that, there will always be that "what if" or "I bet so and so did this..." And no, for the fourth, fifth or whatever post, I'm not talking about you personally.

Kitty
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:29 pm
Discord Handle: Kitty#2410

Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:23 pm

Khyran wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:10 pm
If you weren't playing one of each right now, would you be this upset? (Ignoring the grandfathering in idea) Be honest. I, as someone who has played both sides (more heavily the mage, or mage in the Order side) would not want to play both at the same time for the very obvious conflicts of interest, whether those ever materialize for ONE person or not, it is always a possibility and one that should NOT be a possibility. I trust the pbase, but when the system provides a means for that, there will always be that "what if" or "I bet so and so did this..." And no, for the fourth, fifth or whatever post, I'm not talking about you personally.
Honestly? Yes. because I always wanted to play a mage to try it out and learn the code behind it (it's interesting), and I am against limiting what a player can do. Getting people to join the Order, at the moment, and keep them around, is pretty difficult. This will only add one more level to that.

I had my mage before I had my Orderite, by at least a month, if not more, and I took care to make sure that there would be no cross. I fail to understand why other players can't be given this same benefit of the doubt.

As for 'would I be as upset', I'm obviously still saying things after they mentioned grandfathering in my own characters.... so yes - even if it doesn't include me, I feel strongly about this. With a playerbase as small as what we have, I do not believe this kind of limitation is going to be helpful. We need Order characters. And we need mages. We need both of them for the theme to work - with the size of the pbase, you say it has to be one or the other, then it will almost always be mage. I guarantee it.

Not all mages are directly attacking members of the Order, or even causing waves. Some of them just... exist. Some don't even do anything to be noticed.

And believe me, I see all of your examples. And you know what? I trust players to make the decisions necessary. (Because of the way I've arranged my characters, none of your examples apply to me, specifically.)

Again - I thought the rule was to trust that everyone is doing their best , unless proven otherwise. Not punish people who haven't done anything wrong - current or future.

Please don't reply with more examples of how it could go wrong. We get it. But, on that note, I'm also done arguing with you. I don't know if it's me embarrassing myself by now and making myself look like an awful person, or you doing so, but it's obvious we don't agree, so there's no point in continuing the back and forth. Respond to me as much as you want, I'm letting it lie. I've stated my points... repeatedly now. So have you.

Khyran
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:30 pm
Discord Handle: Khyran#1419

Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:40 pm

Kitty wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:23 pm
Khyran wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:10 pm
If you weren't playing one of each right now, would you be this upset? (Ignoring the grandfathering in idea) Be honest. I, as someone who has played both sides (more heavily the mage, or mage in the Order side) would not want to play both at the same time for the very obvious conflicts of interest, whether those ever materialize for ONE person or not, it is always a possibility and one that should NOT be a possibility. I trust the pbase, but when the system provides a means for that, there will always be that "what if" or "I bet so and so did this..." And no, for the fourth, fifth or whatever post, I'm not talking about you personally.
Not all mages are directly attacking members of the Order, or even causing waves. Some of them just... exist. Some don't even do anything to be noticed.
Yes, I'm done as well, we have differences of opinion and that's fine. It happens. But to that point and I'll leave it at this -> Not all mages, no. But ALL Orderites should be actively hunting Mages, even the ones that are doing nothing and just existing. It is the literal theme of this game.

As a side note to anyone else, I am happy to discuss this topic and my side/opinion. I do not assume my opinion is entirely correct by the way, but it is always nice to see the thoughts of others, even just to understand why someone answered as they did, etc.

Ps. Kitty, if I came off as hostile, not at all my intention, just defending my point of view as you are yours

Temi
Posts: 359
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:22 pm

Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:42 pm

Kitty wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:56 pm
This reads as 'this is happening', so... why open it up to player debate?
Not at all. This is a way we could solve it, depending on what players think will be best for the game, long term. Staff have strong pros and cons on both sides, so we are interested in hearing overall thoughts.

Kitty
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:29 pm
Discord Handle: Kitty#2410

Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:54 pm

Khyran wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:40 pm
Yes, I'm done as well, we have differences of opinion and that's fine. It happens. But to that point and I'll leave it at this -> Not all mages, no. But ALL Orderites should be actively hunting Mages, even the ones that are doing nothing and just existing. It is the literal theme of this game.
I do have to respond to this, because it is a misunderstanding of theme.

No, not every Orderite 'hunts' mages.

Inquisitors and Knights hunt mages.

Priests and priestesses do not. Priests and priestesses, if someone comes to them to report something magical, they have to refer them to the inquisitors or the knights. They know very little about any investigations going on.

In fact, if someone outs themselves as a mage in confession with a priest or a priestess, they are required to give a penance of going to turn themselves into an inquisitor to confess to them, but they are not allowed to break the walls of the sacred confession to report them - to do so could have serious consequences.

They can report normal things they see, just like any regular citizen, but priests and priestesses, and by extension some bishops if they have chosen not to pursue their inquisitorial rings, do not hunt mages.

Inquisitors are chosen from priests, but not all priests become inquisitors.

Khyran
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:30 pm
Discord Handle: Khyran#1419

Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:55 pm

Kitty wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:54 pm
Khyran wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:40 pm
Yes, I'm done as well, we have differences of opinion and that's fine. It happens. But to that point and I'll leave it at this -> Not all mages, no. But ALL Orderites should be actively hunting Mages, even the ones that are doing nothing and just existing. It is the literal theme of this game.
I do have to respond to this, because it is a misunderstanding of theme.

No, not every Orderite 'hunts' mages.

Inquisitors and Knights hunt mages.

Priests and priestesses do not. Priests and priestesses, if someone comes to them to report something magical, they have to refer them to the inquisitors or the knights. They know very little about any investigations going on.

In fact, if someone outs themselves as a mage in confession with a priest or a priestess, they are required to give a penance of going to turn themselves into an inquisitor to confess to them, but they are not allowed to break the walls of the sacred confession to report them - to do so could have serious consequences.

They can report normal things they see, just like any regular citizen, but priests and priestesses, and by extension some bishops if they have chosen not to pursue their inquisitorial rings, do not hunt mages.

Inquisitors are chosen from priests, but not all priests become inquisitors.
Yes, my bad on this. I was speaking more specifically to Knights/Inquisitors vs Mages. You are right on the Priest/Priestess (and other extensions of that side of the Order)

Nevermore
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:41 pm

Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:53 am

I voted a solid no. Subconsciously, even if your character [Order] does not actively pursue the case but stumbles upon evidence, you'll be more cautious on your mage. Unless you don't have a fear of losing your mage character, but what about the crowd that grows attached to their virtual personalities? There are a lot of variables involved, but since the game is largely Mages vs Order and Reeves vs Brotherhood is only an element, I'm earnestly surprised that the former isn't taken more seriously.

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