[Poll] 'Society' vs 'society'

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Should TI have a 'society' or 'Society' with a capital S?

Poll ended at Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:55 pm

Capital 'S'!
0
No votes
Lower case 's'!
4
80%
Undecided, comments below
1
20%
 
Total votes: 5
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Kinaed
Posts: 1895
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:54 pm
Discord Handle: ParaVox3#7579

Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:55 pm

Players may have noticed that when they type 'help character <name>', they now see some information about a particular character's prestige. For nobles, this is prestige in relation to Court. For everyone else, it is prestige in relation to 'society'.

When I originally thought of adding Society, I figured it'd be a bit like the Victorian "Society"... where the non-nobility (and a large portion of nobility) interact and ape Court. However, I'm not sure that's themely. We certainly don't have anything for "Society" at the moment, and I'm not certain how Court ended up related to Society by that time period. They may have actually been the same thing, or Society may have been a watered-down version of Court as the monarchy waned from full power to a figurehead. I'm not a scholar in this area. Anyway, this would mean building a Society with a capital 'S', which may be too many dimensions for a game of TI's size - or it could be just right for our theme. Do we want to see something like this as an addition to theme, or do we just want to imply that non-nobles are not welcome at Court at all? What should the themely difference be, etc? Or should we just leave society with a lower-case 's', referring to the community at large with no special similarities to Court?

Note: We don't have to cling strongly to medieval themes as we're a fantasy game, but we should be careful about turning too modern for medieval stuff, or we run the risk of not feeling like what we advertise ourselves to be to would-be players.

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Buzz K[ir]ill
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:42 pm

Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:32 pm

I guess I don't understand the point of this question or how it would affect gameplay in any functional, meaningful way.

At this point, the Court doesn't really exist outside of the occasional event and background RP, except in the form of one line in my character's helpfile. I'm not sure how adding or not adding Society with a capital S would have any real bearing on how the game is played.

If it's just a matter of "what does the one line in everyone else's helpfile mean," then I guess I don't have an opinion one way or another, since it'd just be another abstract detail removed from most gameplay?

SilverMoon
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:58 pm

Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:21 pm

yeah, I'm not quite understanding this question either.
I want to make sure I fully understand it before I vote.

LonelyNeptune
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:02 pm

Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:27 pm

There is no way anybody is going to see a capital 'S' and come to a conclusion as convoluted as this. I would just leave it.

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Rothgar
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:32 am

Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:32 pm

Buzz K[ir]ill wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:32 pm
I guess I don't understand the point of this question or how it would affect gameplay in any functional, meaningful way.

At this point, the Court doesn't really exist outside of the occasional event and background RP, except in the form of one line in my character's helpfile. I'm not sure how adding or not adding Society with a capital S would have any real bearing on how the game is played.

If it's just a matter of "what does the one line in everyone else's helpfile mean," then I guess I don't have an opinion one way or another, since it'd just be another abstract detail removed from most gameplay?
This.
Just do it with a lowercase 's,' it's the grammatically proper way to do it as it's not the beginning of the sentence or the quotation, nor is it being used as a proper noun, nor as the signature line of a letter, or anything else that would cause it to be capitalized. I don't know why this needed a poll.
Rothgar Astartes, Fyurii Rynnya, Nils 'Smith' Mattias, Edward Darson, Curos Arents.

Kitty
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:29 pm
Discord Handle: Kitty#2410

Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:39 pm

I think... the purpose is being missed here in most of the commentary. The capitalization is a side conversation, and the real question is about what the information should draw from. I think the capital vs. lowercase is more... leaning toward courtly/bigwig vs. local/Lithmore itself.

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Kinaed
Posts: 1895
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:54 pm
Discord Handle: ParaVox3#7579

Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:52 pm

I am not a historian, but for clarity to those whom I confused, my general understanding is thus:

'Society' was historically a proper noun in reference to an upper class social group in the Western caste system that had extreme social rituals. Failure to understand the unspoken rules or have the correct markers (e.g. wealth, pedigree, and etiquette upbringing) indicated one was an outsider to this group. The rigor applied to 'being part of Society' was both the formal and informal tool of the Western caste system, and very much a part of medieval/renaissance culture. The name and rules associated with Society changed over time, so we have a jumbled understanding of the historical social norms in modern times, which is why it is hard to place what parts would be thematic. Ironically, medieval times tended to be more socially free in a number of ways than, for example, Victorian times (a very specific time of the renaissance known for its extremes in social constraints).

Vestiges of these rules and the associated class-ism fell strongly out of favor in recent history (I'd be hard pressed to find someone in Western culture that still gives a shit if anyone wears white after Labor Day or was sent to a finishing school to learn to set a table). There were multiple historical events that started the decline, such as the invention of corporations, but the real death knell for Society was probably around WWI. At that time, necessities of war forced society (small 's') to change and allow historically barred social groups access to traditionally class-limited roles/jobs. The process of decline continued through the Great Depression and well into WWII. Whereas the specific forms of 'Society' are generally unknown to the average modern person (we tend to be far less classist, certainly we don't believe God made the ultra-rich superior with inherent natural rights), many of us would still know the difference in connotation between a 'debutante' and an 'unmarried girl'. Our media about the modern ultra-rich still strongly implies concerns about pedigree, wealth, and family alliances (ala Dynasty), but formal Society as all but disappeared.

My question was around how much we should emulate history and create a Society for non-nobles to participate in, or if we should just leave the 'prestige' in society for non-nobles in reference to the general community. However, it's clear from the responses here that the question (or my approach in asking) was probably too complex or specialized for our game.

However, someone clearly has a good point that our existing "Court" is a bit vague and lacking in social context, etc. I think we should look at that and see if we can improve upon it instead. By doing so, we'll likely shed some light on how prestigious gentry and freemen fit in.

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