Mages and confessions

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The_Last_Good_Dragon
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Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:09 am

If you want to RP your characters as having some conflict with this, that's fine. But, as stated, there's helpfiles clearly ,supporting Rothgar's interpretations, and from my experience as both someone raised in a severely-religious part of the world and, more recently, someone who played Grand Inquisitor .. the general population likes the easiest answers. That's a legitimate IC thing. IRL religions support the idea of 'You can be a terrible person all your life and be redeemed in your dying breaths'.

The Oppressiveness of the Holy Order tends to not come from its messages of redemption, but by their complete unwillingness to allow counter-thought. As Rothgar accurately notes, this is because — in a world where demons exist and magic can turn people into dust and mages can manipulate dreams and read thoughts and all the other terrifying things mages can do — there can be legitimate consequences to these thoughts.

Also, the Pyring isn't just someone getting some sticks together and lighting them and throwing a sinner on them. It's a specialized, ritualistic process involving ritualistic aspects that Davites believe give this particular fire some element of divinity in order to purge taint from the soul of the heretic. Specifically for a mage, they believe the taint that person causes was caused not by the human's spirit, which yearns to obey the Lord, but by the taint implanted inately by them by the evils of the Abyss. Because a mage was cursed from birth to be what they are, removing the taint also removes the complicity of evil.
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Voxumo
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Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:50 pm

The_Last_Good_Dragon wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:09 am
Also, the Pyring isn't just someone getting some sticks together and lighting them and throwing a sinner on them.
It isn't ritualistic, it is just quite literally strap the person to the pole and light the fire underneath them. If people actually rped the ritualistic process I'd agree, but I haven't seen anyone do so in a long time, unless listing the crimes is the only ritualistic aspect.
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Kuzco
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Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:51 pm

There is using holy oils and praying. A mage that dies in a house fire wouldn't be the same, it appears.

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The_Last_Good_Dragon
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Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:00 pm

Voxumo wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:50 pm
The_Last_Good_Dragon wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:09 am
Also, the Pyring isn't just someone getting some sticks together and lighting them and throwing a sinner on them.
It isn't ritualistic, it is just quite literally strap the person to the pole and light the fire underneath them. If people actually rped the ritualistic process I'd agree, but I haven't seen anyone do so in a long time, unless listing the crimes is the only ritualistic aspect.
This is not accurate — something I found out when considering with a long-term player over the death of an alt of mine, Dawn; it's also reflected in either a helpfile or IC text of the Order (I can't remember which, unfortunately!) which is what spawned the conversation! Davism teaches that something the Inquisitors do is what gives the Pyre it's voracity. Whether this is by arranging the pyre in a particular way, blessing the wood or oil (or other lighting mechanics), or particular prayers with the person ahead-of-time, it takes a properly trained Inquisitor to pyre a mage in a fashion that cleanses the soul and taint. Merely burning a mage, Davites believe, is not necessarily enough. That something is not clearly defined, but it is an important element of the religion.

This makes some obvious sense — a mage killing another mage with fire, after all, is not in any way a "Holy" action, nor are flames of various sort seen as somehow sacred. A mage who kills someone with fire isn't "purifying" them in any fashion, nor are those who kill people with fire.
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Voxumo
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Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:56 am

The_Last_Good_Dragon wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:00 pm
Voxumo wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:50 pm
The_Last_Good_Dragon wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:09 am
Also, the Pyring isn't just someone getting some sticks together and lighting them and throwing a sinner on them.
It isn't ritualistic, it is just quite literally strap the person to the pole and light the fire underneath them. If people actually rped the ritualistic process I'd agree, but I haven't seen anyone do so in a long time, unless listing the crimes is the only ritualistic aspect.
This is not accurate — something I found out when considering with a long-term player over the death of an alt of mine, Dawn; it's also reflected in either a helpfile or IC text of the Order (I can't remember which, unfortunately!) which is what spawned the conversation! Davism teaches that something the Inquisitors do is what gives the Pyre it's voracity. Whether this is by arranging the pyre in a particular way, blessing the wood or oil (or other lighting mechanics), or particular prayers with the person ahead-of-time, it takes a properly trained Inquisitor to pyre a mage in a fashion that cleanses the soul and taint. Merely burning a mage, Davites believe, is not necessarily enough. That something is not clearly defined, but it is an important element of the religion.

This makes some obvious sense — a mage killing another mage with fire, after all, is not in any way a "Holy" action, nor are flames of various sort seen as somehow sacred. A mage who kills someone with fire isn't "purifying" them in any fashion, nor are those who kill people with fire.
It would be helpful to know that helpfile, as I've had it explained to me a few times icly that it's the "Holy" authority of the inquisitor that gives the pyre it's power. This is also backed by a conversation I had with a staff member many years ago, when I was asked by the physicians to "Cleanse" the recovery ward of the madison after a rather horrific mage incident, was playing an inquisitor at the time. I asked staff for some clarification on something relating to it, and was basically told that the order doesn't really do cleansings, given LoS isn't supposed to be portrayed as an "Active" deity that gives his followers the power to bless or cleanse. But I don't disagree that the common folk would believe there is something more to said pyrings, just as they would believe blessings and cleansings actually do something. I was moreso argueing the actual rped aspect of the pyre, as I think I misread your post as you trying to say the order rps that ritual aspect.
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Helena
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Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:09 am

If you want to RP your characters as having some conflict with this, that's fine.
By reading this kind of sentence, I understand there is no way to approach these subjects ICly, unless I would want to be pyred.

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Rothgar
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Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:47 am

Helena wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:09 am
If you want to RP your characters as having some conflict with this, that's fine.
By reading this kind of sentence, I understand there is no way to approach these subjects ICly, unless I would want to be pyred.
To be fair, you've approached these subjects IC'ly over three different characters and haven't been pyred. Being labelled a heretic isn't necessarily an IC pyring, it just really depends on your actions during that period.
Rothgar Astartes, Fyurii Rynnya, Nils 'Smith' Mattias, Edward Darson, Curos Arents.

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The_Last_Good_Dragon
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Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:58 am

Helena wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:09 am
If you want to RP your characters as having some conflict with this, that's fine.
By reading this kind of sentence, I understand there is no way to approach these subjects ICly, unless I would want to be pyred.
As Starfish kind of alluded to in another post, this OOC assumption of IC inability to act isn't healthy for any of a character, a player, or the MUD in a more broad sense. Of course there are ways to approach these topics ICly, and of course you can both avoid the pyre and, really, getting the moniker of being a heretic. As always, as TI:L always tries to be, it is how these topics are brought up and to whom that matters. Some priests might be willing to talk about the topics outside of confession — some might encourage it! Some might not, some might interpret them as a type of heresy. After all, publicly quarreling with an Orderite invites others to do the same if it is tolerated, which undermines the religion's authority.
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Helena
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Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:40 pm

To be fair, you've approached these subjects IC'ly over three different characters and haven't been pyred.
To be fair, I think that only one of my characters approached this subject, in a book. The content has not been commented ICly, so, the discussion did not happen. This exact discussion is only distantly related to my IC experience.

I only wanted to mean that I am aligning myself with your opinion although I am not convinced by your arguments, and will approach this subject more carefully than I was prone to do by thinking it was a valid interpretation of the lore.

lkbalboa
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Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:00 pm

I mean this all kind of breaks down if you look at it too much. Danijel is a Saint and he burned down a tower with a mage in it. People used to drown mages, not burn them. There's endless OOC and IC discussion to be had, but the fun part of this dark theme is that questioning it ICly is IC heresy. The Inquisition is horrifyingly oppressive!

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