The Stranglehold of the Holy Order

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Evrald
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 4:04 pm

Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:27 pm

So... Precedence is due for respect. When it comes time to confess your sins, anyone from the rank of Priest of Above is qualified regardless of your IC Rank... I thought that was the case for everything, the Order is the Order. It is a beast all it's own that EVERYONE respects because an Inquisitor has the power to say that a Noble is committing heresy to the GI and the GI can then go whip said noble for their Heretical actions. There is a deep seated fear and respect for the Order, they're the super power. Think of it as living in the Vatican and being Catholic. It doesn't matter how high in society you think you are, if you need to confess your sins, you don't want til some high ranking bishop is around to take your confession, you go to your church and confess your sins to the priest there.

I don't see how using vNPCs or NPCs really is acceptable at all except when the only orderite is the GI who is extremely busy and Acolytes who are not allowed to take confessions, which is the state we are at currently. If you use IC methods such as MAIL or a pboard to get in contact with the GI for a confession and they tell you it's cool to just use a vNPC unless it's direly important, then go for it. Otherwise, attempt all avenues of IC communication first, the Grand Inquisitor will take your RP if you want to give it, pretty much guarantee if they are available for RP they will take it.

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Buzz K[ir]ill
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Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:42 pm

Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:30 pm

I think a good general rule is:

If there are full-fledged PC priests (or inquisitors) available, make an effort to confess with one of those, and if not, feel free to background it with a vNPC until you can.

Doesn't have to be much more complicated than that. You might, as a noble, demand the services of a high-ranking priest while in Lithmore, and you'd certainly have someone well-qualified serving you back home or in your court. But at the end of the day, if they're qualified to take confession, they're qualified to take confession -- whether you're a lowly freeman or a titled Marquis.

Giles
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:49 am
Discord Handle: Giles

Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:33 pm

All fair points. I admit I was wrong. I was overthinking it.

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Buzz K[ir]ill
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Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:43 pm

Giles wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:33 pm
All fair points. I admit I was wrong. I was overthinking it.
Nah, don't beat yourself up over it.

Helena
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:17 pm

Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:44 pm

There's nonetheless that help file (help confession I think it was), that states that confessing to an inquisitor is not the same thing as confessing to a priest. Examples would be welcome to clarify that but, here is how I understand it:

- if you say you are sinning with X or Y, expect the inquisitor will hunt them. While the priest won't.
- The priest has no power to penance you against your will, and will seek for your agreement (or break his vow by breaking the seal of your confession). While the inquisitor can (and will) do whatever he thinks needed, including make a public affair of your sin (public penance), or sending you to ahalin.

As a result, I don't like much the idea that in absence of PC priest, one should seek to confess to an inquisitor.

Solipsis
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:47 pm

Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:06 pm

Priests can give you public penance as well. If a Priest believes that you are not reforming, they can let an Inquisitor know about that as well (if memory serves; I tried looking for the relevant helpfile here, but out of the staggering three files I checked, didn't find the reference I remember). Disobeying a Priest's prescribed Penance is probably not an advisable move. If you confess to sinning with someone to a Priest, they absolutely should be bringing up this other someone! Priests are not powerless, passive little sin-cushions. Just as not all Inquisitors need to be played as the same sort of gruff and terrifying monster, not all Priests are marshmallows. I definitely don't agree that we should be avoiding confessing to any Priest, let alone Inquisitors.

Inquisitors are also Priests. They can take Confession. There is a helpfile (help sins) that says it's okay to confess to an NPC if your sins are minor, so long as you periodically include a PC Orderite (note, Orderite - not Priest specifically) in that sort of RP. Just because we only have Inquisitors (to be fair, an Inquisitor) and not a Priest shouldn't mean you get to skip Confession. The Inquisition is in the title of the game! Why do you not want to deal with the Inquisition, heretic? ;)

Starstarfish
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Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:37 pm

if you say you are sinning with X or Y, expect the inquisitor will hunt them. While the priest won't.
This entirely depends on the Priest and/or Inquisitor in question. Again, we are trying to OOCly pre-determine or pre-guess other people's RP. Just because you are a Priest and not an Inquisitor doesn't mean you might not be a total (and thematic) zealot.
The priest has no power to penance you against your will, and will seek for your agreement
From help cleansing:
Ordained priests handle the minor cleansings that are involved in confession, such as assigning penances or simply blessing the sinner.
A Priest can and should determine AKA assign the proper punishment for what you confess. Nowhere does it say that requires your agreement or that your will is involved. He clearly cannot -make- you in theory do some of the things suggested. And he doesn't need to say -what- you are being punished for to mention to a higher up that you've not seen to your cleansing.

Helena
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Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:23 pm

I think you're right. And by the way, I can't find that helpfile stating that confessing to an inquisitor is not the same thing as confessing to a priest. It may not exist, or that sentence may come from a IC book.

Giles
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Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:49 am
Discord Handle: Giles

Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:38 am

If anything, I would think going to an Inquisitor would be better in the eyes of society. You are literally saying, with that action: "Okay, you can kill me based on what I tell you." Priests don't really have that option unless they're super corrupt and decide to stick a knife in you while you're confessing.

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The_Last_Good_Dragon
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Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:08 am

Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:03 pm

Solipsis wrote:Priests can give you public penance as well. If a Priest believes that you are not reforming, they can let an Inquisitor know about that as well (if memory serves; I tried looking for the relevant helpfile here, but out of the staggering three files I checked, didn't find the reference I remember).
This is actually not the case, insofar as Thematic Action goes. The Penance of the Sin is part of the actual Cleansing ("Cleansing" involves two stages: Confessing and Penance) and, as I understood it, a Priest would not be thematically permitted to go to an Inquisitor over a Penance being broken. However, an Inquisitor who heard about a Penance not being fulfilled absolutely would be expected to go knocking on that person's door.
Disobeying a Priest's prescribed Penance is probably not an advisable move. If you confess to sinning with someone to a Priest, they absolutely should be bringing up this other someone! Priests are not powerless, passive little sin-cushions.
However, this is also true, and a Priest has clever ways to work around this limitation if they so choose. However, those limitations can carry with it some measure of IC risk to the Priest themselves.
Helena wrote:The priest has no power to penance you against your will, and will seek for your agreement (or break his vow by breaking the seal of your confession).
As others have accurately noted, but just to pipe in myself, this isn't true. A Priest has absolutely no requirement to seek an "agreeable" penance. A good Davite will accept any penance assigned to them, even if it's wildly over-the-top. Thematically, Davites believe in Penance going too far as being totally fine, because then you're at least certain all the Taint got cleared out. This is, iirc, literally written into the Erra Pater.

A Davite who rejects a penance assigned to them is not playing a thematic Davite; a Priest who does what they can to ensure that Penance is carried out short of breaking the seal of Confession is playing a thematic Davite. Remember, the Holy Order isn't solely concerned with the individual's soul finding the fontis, they are concerned with being part of the very literal war between the Lord of the Springs and the Void itself. There's a disharmony that exists here that is very much intentional, enabling characters to create Orderites more or less conflicted with the passive and secretive duties they are tasked with overseeing.
Helena wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:23 pm
I think you're right. And by the way, I can't find that helpfile stating that confessing to an inquisitor is not the same thing as confessing to a priest. It may not exist, or that sentence may come from a IC book.
From "help cleansing", last paragraph.
While it isn't standard for Inquisitors to take confessions, those who do are held to their vows as an Inquisitor before their vows as a Priest. Confession with a Priest is inviolate regardless of what is confessed, while confession to an Inquisitor comes with the expectation that they are an Inquisitor first.
Giles wrote:If anything, I would think going to an Inquisitor would be better in the eyes of society. You are literally saying, with that action: "Okay, you can kill me based on what I tell you." Priests don't really have that option unless they're super corrupt and decide to stick a knife in you while you're confessing.
It could be, yes, but that'd be up for individuals to determine. A Davite wouldn't seek out a Confession with an Inquisitor, under normal situations, unless a very serious sin were involved. There was one time when, on the heels of doing something pretty bad, Farra went straight to the then-Earl Marshall to describe the whole situation (while lying through her teeth, mostly) and that swiftness to go straight to the Knights for help factored heavily into the eventual confession with the PC Clergy.
~~ Team Farra'n'Stuff. ~~

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