Noble Wealth

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Voxumo
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Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:17 pm

Puciek wrote: Instead, you could've just magically added it as you went along which was silly.
You just really love the phrase "Magically" don't you?

Houses/Buildings can be renovated well after they're initially built, and even entirely new rooms added with time. There is nothing "Silly" or "Magical" about such additions being added overtime. It's no different than a person getting a free one room phome and adding on to it overtime, or do you find that silly as well?
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Puciek
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Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:04 am

Voxumo wrote:
Puciek wrote: Instead, you could've just magically added it as you went along which was silly.
You just really love the phrase "Magically" don't you?

Houses/Buildings can be renovated well after they're initially built, and even entirely new rooms added with time. There is nothing "Silly" or "Magical" about such additions being added overtime. It's no different than a person getting a free one room phome and adding on to it overtime, or do you find that silly as well?
As always I appreciate the "personal touches" and you are confusing validly hiring an IC crew for silver to build something (just that it happens behind the scenes), to magically spawning silver because you've sat in a tavern long enough, as this apparently generates silver.
Blake Evernight tells you, "You, Sir, won my heart today. Are you single?"

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Voxumo
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Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:32 am

Puciek wrote:
Voxumo wrote:
Puciek wrote: Instead, you could've just magically added it as you went along which was silly.
You just really love the phrase "Magically" don't you?

Houses/Buildings can be renovated well after they're initially built, and even entirely new rooms added with time. There is nothing "Silly" or "Magical" about such additions being added overtime. It's no different than a person getting a free one room phome and adding on to it overtime, or do you find that silly as well?
As always I appreciate the "personal touches" and you are confusing validly hiring an IC crew for silver to build something (just that it happens behind the scenes), to magically spawning silver because you've sat in a tavern long enough, as this apparently generates silver.
What? I can't even figure out what your argument is here and I certainly don't believe I'm confusing anything here... There is no way for any character icly to actually build rooms, so of course it's going to "Magically" appear as it's assumed contractors were hired. If it was within any characters coded abilities to build rooms on grid, I could see your argument, but it isn't.

And someone getting silver to add on to their phome overtime is no different now than it was before, just the length of time to get the required silver is different... so what is your point?
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Andruid
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Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:25 am

If I'm understanding him correctly, Puciek is referring to the fact that nobles used to rely heavily on the purchase silver command, which made it easy to come up with cash for frivolous on-the-fly expenses or instantly add wings to entire mansions. However, it was also assumed, though perhaps not often RP'd out, that the money did in fact come from somewhere.

I did the fairly broke noble thing, and I get it -- it's hard to play the part you applied for if you don't have the resources, and sometimes you don't know what you're getting into until you're in the thick of it (case in point: newer players apping in for noble roles). Part of the fun should be spreading the silver around, but often you're left pinching pennies together instead, and it takes work to build up the cash (and work seems like the antithesis of being a noble). I don't have anything against giving nobs a tier 3 asset, if they want it, or giving them a little more starting silver (retainers ARE expensive). Neither of these things seem game-breaking to me, but there are ways to address the issue ICly, too.

Nobs do have something gentry don't and will never have, and that's serious clout. Nobs can use that creatively to their advantage, by offering favors, political support, marriage prospects, and so on in return for cheaper goods or services. If you want to save face, you can explain that much of your resources are tied up in your domain, on the way, or otherwise being funneled toward building a mansion. New homes do take time to build (often many months, IRL), so it's fine to grab a free phome at the Bluebird for a while and then move it over and add a few rooms when you've amassed the necessary funds (if you don't want to be living in an unfinished castle).

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Voxumo
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Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:54 am

I'll admit, I completely disagree with the notion a nobles "Clout" is worth anything, or is something that makes them special. I mean all the examples you provided are frankly things any character with substantial influence can offer, including Gentry. Also it doesn't help that nobles just aren't as... Important, influential? As they once were. Recentish IC events have really diminished the threat nobles present, and we've seen several occasions where nobles are downright mocked by the populace when they try to flaunt their supposed power.

I mean events like the Lundsend and Charali plains did no favors to the reputation of Nobles when it's shown any joe schmoo can become a noble under the right conditions.
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Puciek
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Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:13 am

Voxumo wrote:I'll admit, I completely disagree with the notion a nobles "Clout" is worth anything, or is something that makes them special. I mean all the examples you provided are frankly things any character with substantial influence can offer, including Gentry. Also it doesn't help that nobles just aren't as... Important, influential? As they once were. Recentish IC events have really diminished the threat nobles present, and we've seen several occasions where nobles are downright mocked by the populace when they try to flaunt their supposed power.

I mean events like the Lundsend and Charali plains did no favors to the reputation of Nobles when it's shown any joe schmoo can become a noble under the right conditions.
It's because nobles allow themselves to be mocked. It will sound harsh but if you are a noble grow a backbone and if someone mocks you - find who did it and get them whipped. If that doesn't work, get them hanged - as it's all within noble powers, just that it's not utilized. And if Justiciar refuses to follow on an order from a noble to get someone whipped, write to the Queen or whoever oversees the Reeves NPC-wise.
Blake Evernight tells you, "You, Sir, won my heart today. Are you single?"

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Whisper
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Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:33 am

Judging by what Puciek says there are some interesting options that I had not thought of. Granted I don't agree that new players should be confined to strictly broke nobles especially with a system that makes it harder on them to earn money to begin with. Its like starting with a handicap in a system rigged against them. Or that's what it feels like. Still I understand that technically a noble could use that supposed 'clout' to help find some workarounds.

For example I play a noble who is supposed to be an almighty brat to pretty much everyone she deems beneath her. Would it be feasible for her to bully a tailor into giving her a discount by threatening to have the tailor blacklisted and whipped if they didn't comply? Or she could tempt people with the offer of favors and such if they bribe her with gifts or coin? Now I don't know how this would work for a nicer noble...but she isn't nice.

Puciek
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Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:42 am

Whisper wrote:Judging by what Puciek says there are some interesting options that I had not thought of. Granted I don't agree that new players should be confined to strictly broke nobles especially with a system that makes it harder on them to earn money to begin with. Its like starting with a handicap in a system rigged against them. Or that's what it feels like. Still I understand that technically a noble could use that supposed 'clout' to help find some workarounds.

For example I play a noble who is supposed to be an almighty brat to pretty much everyone she deems beneath her. Would it be feasible for her to bully a tailor into giving her a discount by threatening to have the tailor blacklisted and whipped if they didn't comply? Or she could tempt people with the offer of favors and such if they bribe her with gifts or coin? Now I don't know how this would work for a nicer noble...but she isn't nice.
The people-with-saved-xp-can-start-better-characters is a very core of TI exp system, it absolutely is not fair but that's how TI been always rolling, personally, I don't see it as a bad thing as it forces people to explore something else than perfection, while also allowing that perfect-at-everything character if you will save up the XP.

But using your title doesn't have to be in a nasty threatening way (but your example of demanding a discount from a merchant is perfectly fine and been done icly), you could instead say "You sure appreciate being even considered to make some clothes for me a privilege, and the fact that I will wear them as greatest of honors, not going offend me by asking for pay, yes?". This isn't necessarily hostile and can be done in a lot nicer way than I put it here while still reminding people that you are the ruler of the land, one of most privileged people out there, that it's a grace to be allowed to breathe the air while you are in the room. And that applies to freemen and gentry alike.
Blake Evernight tells you, "You, Sir, won my heart today. Are you single?"

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Whisper
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Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:03 am

It does reward long term players which is good. But it can make new players wary too I think, if they feel like they are starting with too much of a disadvantage. I mean lets face it lately you have to choose between starting with skills or assets/money if you are new. Starting without skills makes it a bit harder to get an IC job but allows for learning RP if you can find a teacher. Where as assets and money are pretty crucial to gentry, noble and merchant types in some form. Purchasing noble or gentry costs quite a chunk of xp, 15,000 I think. Add in around another 10,000 if you play anything other than Lithmorran and want to speak the main language properly. That's around half the starting xp for a foreign noble or gentry who speaks Lithmorran and their native tongue. No assets. No extra skills.

So yes, older players have a heavy advantage. Its not a bad thing exactly as I think it encourages people to play and advance as best they can. But the more casual players probably do have issues, which I can understand. I'm pretty new myself and I love that xp is earned strictly through RP. Most other games I've played, everyone earned the same xp over time. The longer you were around the better you got whether active or not. I like this system better because it rewards activity. Some portions of it strike me as a bit challenging I admit, I'm not really one for hard difficulty levels if I'm honest. But most of the challenges do have workarounds or people are open to discussing changes. Which is great.

Also you are right, the hostility is only one option for nobles. Subtle hints that they are better paired with occasional veiled threats would likely be far more effective. And in fact that example you offered is just the sort of snobbish emotional blackmail my noble would employ at times. Thank you for that brilliant idea.

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Andruid
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Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:40 am

Well, I wouldn't completely refuse to pay a Merchant for their hard work unless you want to risk being blacklisted and starting a class war (could be fun?), but offering to talk up the Merchant's amazing wares to other nobles/wealthy notables in exchange for better prices is certainly something one can do and is the nicer alternative to threatening bad things if one doesn't receive the "discount I deserve for honoring you with my patronage," or whatever. Though, either way represents a perfectly valid IC route -- each with its own potential consequences.

Clout is really what you make of it. Nobles often have the ears of various guild leaders and thereby are able to influence major plots and events. A noble's word is also worth more, thematically, which is why nobles can accuse someone of offending them and then have that person whipped in public or thrown in the stocks, as Puciek suggests. During Seneschal races, or when running a smear campaign via rumors, having extra IP is super handy -- and a noble's support certainly doesn't hurt. ("I sympathize with your situation. I'll lend you my support in exchange for, say, twenty silver per month?")

I think the more you can think outside the box to capitalize on these advantages, the better off you'll be financially. And when hiring PC guards/gardeners/cooks/etc., there may be more you can offer as payment than mere coin. Connections, introductions to other nobles, advertising (e.g. "spreading a good word about your services"). You can and should also have high expectations, as a noble: "Oh, you don't have any references? Well then, we shall start at fifteen silver monthly and evaluate your performance in six months."

These sorts of deals, negotiations, and intrigue are IMO not only thematic but make playing a noble more interesting than simply throwing money at people/things.

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