Re: [Poll] Theme Enforcement - the gentle approach
Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:11 pm
Right off the bat, I'll ask in advance for anyone willing to explain to me this entire "The Order is corrupt" meme. I've heard it out of the mouths of 6 different characters, IC'ly, 2 or 3 of whom either got banned or left, and evidently this is such an enriching and fun plot to play around with that now I'm hearing the exact same arguments out of the mouths of people who - seemingly - haven't bothered to approach the Order, itself, to ask about these things? Anyway. I'm starting up a 'know your meme' page with "The Order is Corrupt," on it and I want to make sure I get the story correct. Any assistance would be appreciated.
I'll handle these as I read them over my time in traffic after my vacation. Initial post from Kinaed addressed the Staff taking a stronger stance on enforcing theme. Perhaps understandably, Staff and I have butted heads on this subject. They know that I have a vision in my head after playing for a few years, I know this is their MUD, and their say, ultimately. I won't touch on what I think "theme," is. Instead, I'll say this : I (generally) do not advocate for the Staff being forced to do more work than they need to do. I believe that there are IC methods of enforcement, and that - generally - Staff does not need to be involved more than they personally want to be. I believe that invoking Staff to do what the players themselves should be doing is, at best, a lazy attempt to coerce them to do your work for you. I will add, as well, that every time Staff has been involved in a high-profile Policy decision, it has never once ended with a kind word and a nod. OOC feelings get hurt, people take sides, people leave - or worse, do wonky things to the server. I speak from experience. I believe that the best-case scenario is letting things play out IC'ly, for better or for worse.
Next was Zeita's suggestion of reviving Court for Policy enforcement. I think this is an idea that has merit, and I generally agree - however, I do not believe that we currently have the playerbase for this to be implemented correctly at this time. I could be entirely wrong, that's just my own suggestion. Your note about Senschal and Church GL's, however, I wholeheartedly agree with. I think it's a drum worth beating, but that's just my $0.02.
Then Desna. There's a lot to process here - first and foremost is an accusation of controlling the game via underhanded means, but not having logs to back that opinion up. The quick and dirty answer to that is : If you don't have logs, don't state it as fact. Having an opinion is absolutely fine. Presenting these opinions as objective facts, however, and then saying that you can't possibly have logs of those "facts?" No. Absolutely not. I've been involved in a "he said, she said," Policy case, and it's awful. Thank the Lord I had logs to prove my side of the story, because otherwise I wouldn't have believed me, either. Case and point : if you have legitimate evidence of cheating, or underhanded OOC techniques, or anything else, you need to present it. Otherwise, keep in mind that it's simply an opinion, from your point of view.
As for how opening up PK will... Strengthen the MUD? I have no idea. Is the argument that older characters are bad for the MUD? That written history is bad for the MUD? You're evidently advocating for a player genocide, and I absolutely cannot in any way agree with you. I'd go so far as to vehemently disagree with you. Older characters are the lifeblood of this MUD. There are enormous names out there, immortalized through IC and OOC historical accounts, and it'd be an utter travesty to lose those accounts and those characters simply because someone, somewhere, doesn't think that "theme" is being followed. This argument is baffling to me, maybe you can flesh it out, but for now, this makes as much sense to me as cutting off my head because I've got a sniffle.
Look, guys, lets be honest with one another. Call a spade a spade, here. Theme - first and foremost - isn't our friend. If we wanted to be "thematic," if we wanted to be "realistic," we'd have women hung in-game for stepping out of doors without a male chaperone. We'd have long ago burned Southside to the freaking ground for what it's done and harbored over the years. Mages would have long ago won the war in the South, and the Church would just be bagging random people off the freaking street to burn them as Mages. This... "Theme," that you want is utter madness. It's horrifying. The 1400's were a freaking horrifying place, medieval Europe was an utter death-trap. There were no "rights," as you know them. Not even basic human rights. The strong ruled over the weak, did what they wanted with them, and tossed them away. I will say this - and anyone here absolutely feel free to correct me if they think I'm wrong :
If this MUD was played wholly in-theme, realistically, absolutely no one would want to play it.
Knowing that, there has to be some "give" to theme. Charalin can't get killed on sight because people WANT to play Charalin. You can't hang a guy for speaking Hill in a bar because some people WANT to speak Hill in an Arien bar. You can't burn everyone with a lazy eye for being a Mage because some people WANT to roleplay having a Lunare lazy eye. It's UNAVOIDABLE. Theme, sometimes, MUST be broken for people to stick around. I mean, do you guys honestly think that, for a second, it would be unthematic for the Knights to start busting down doors and burning randos because they want to? Arien, no. I'd argue that it's unthematic that they CAN'T do that. But I realize that the process - seeking an Inquisitor, warranting, giving the opponent time to act, writing your charges - Provides RP, a chance for people to metastasize what's happening... Honestly, those arguing for a "more pure, thematic" experience can't see the forest for the damned trees. In order for us to wind up having anyone to play with, other than a handful of horrible, sociopathic people, we HAVE to bend or bind theme where we believe it necessary. Do I believe theme enforcement to be necessary? Absolutely. Do I think Staff should be fretting over every little pboard and whine and working their asses off because some people maybe sometimes think that theme isn't being followed to the "T?" Absolutely not.
*EDIT*
My apologies, there was a personal matter that I wanted to add to the bottom of this for those claiming that the Order is cheating, playing horribly, just being dicks, etc etc. I'm not going to comment on how I believe you should join to become the change you want to see. I'm not going to point out that 8/10 people quit within a week of joining the Order and finding out how horrible it is. I'm not going to point out that the LAST time I offered for people to join the Order, literally only one person took the bait. I'm not going to nudge people into finding out how absolutely OOC'ly and IC'ly taxing being an Inquisitor is. I'm just going to leave an example of how we caught someone below, without naming any names or specific situations.
A letter was found about someone. This letter had BURN AFTER READING stamped in all caps, alternating red text, before and after the letter was finished. It was there, three times, on the page itself. Not only was this letter not burned, but there was an entire collection of letters like it. All the same. BURN AFTER READING. All with terribly damning information upon it. Guys, honestly, I understand how you think the Order is cheating and using OOC information. I understand that you believe that your tracks are 100% covered. I understand how utterly frustrating it is to be a Mage. I played one for three OOC years. But you have to understand that you have to put an iota of work into being secretive, into dedicating to your OPSEC, into vetting your friends and allies. We're not good at our jobs - That much, at the very least, I absolutely agree with. We're not even good at RP. But stuff like this happens, and you literally cannot look the other way on it.
I'll handle these as I read them over my time in traffic after my vacation. Initial post from Kinaed addressed the Staff taking a stronger stance on enforcing theme. Perhaps understandably, Staff and I have butted heads on this subject. They know that I have a vision in my head after playing for a few years, I know this is their MUD, and their say, ultimately. I won't touch on what I think "theme," is. Instead, I'll say this : I (generally) do not advocate for the Staff being forced to do more work than they need to do. I believe that there are IC methods of enforcement, and that - generally - Staff does not need to be involved more than they personally want to be. I believe that invoking Staff to do what the players themselves should be doing is, at best, a lazy attempt to coerce them to do your work for you. I will add, as well, that every time Staff has been involved in a high-profile Policy decision, it has never once ended with a kind word and a nod. OOC feelings get hurt, people take sides, people leave - or worse, do wonky things to the server. I speak from experience. I believe that the best-case scenario is letting things play out IC'ly, for better or for worse.
Next was Zeita's suggestion of reviving Court for Policy enforcement. I think this is an idea that has merit, and I generally agree - however, I do not believe that we currently have the playerbase for this to be implemented correctly at this time. I could be entirely wrong, that's just my own suggestion. Your note about Senschal and Church GL's, however, I wholeheartedly agree with. I think it's a drum worth beating, but that's just my $0.02.
Then Desna. There's a lot to process here - first and foremost is an accusation of controlling the game via underhanded means, but not having logs to back that opinion up. The quick and dirty answer to that is : If you don't have logs, don't state it as fact. Having an opinion is absolutely fine. Presenting these opinions as objective facts, however, and then saying that you can't possibly have logs of those "facts?" No. Absolutely not. I've been involved in a "he said, she said," Policy case, and it's awful. Thank the Lord I had logs to prove my side of the story, because otherwise I wouldn't have believed me, either. Case and point : if you have legitimate evidence of cheating, or underhanded OOC techniques, or anything else, you need to present it. Otherwise, keep in mind that it's simply an opinion, from your point of view.
As for how opening up PK will... Strengthen the MUD? I have no idea. Is the argument that older characters are bad for the MUD? That written history is bad for the MUD? You're evidently advocating for a player genocide, and I absolutely cannot in any way agree with you. I'd go so far as to vehemently disagree with you. Older characters are the lifeblood of this MUD. There are enormous names out there, immortalized through IC and OOC historical accounts, and it'd be an utter travesty to lose those accounts and those characters simply because someone, somewhere, doesn't think that "theme" is being followed. This argument is baffling to me, maybe you can flesh it out, but for now, this makes as much sense to me as cutting off my head because I've got a sniffle.
Look, guys, lets be honest with one another. Call a spade a spade, here. Theme - first and foremost - isn't our friend. If we wanted to be "thematic," if we wanted to be "realistic," we'd have women hung in-game for stepping out of doors without a male chaperone. We'd have long ago burned Southside to the freaking ground for what it's done and harbored over the years. Mages would have long ago won the war in the South, and the Church would just be bagging random people off the freaking street to burn them as Mages. This... "Theme," that you want is utter madness. It's horrifying. The 1400's were a freaking horrifying place, medieval Europe was an utter death-trap. There were no "rights," as you know them. Not even basic human rights. The strong ruled over the weak, did what they wanted with them, and tossed them away. I will say this - and anyone here absolutely feel free to correct me if they think I'm wrong :
If this MUD was played wholly in-theme, realistically, absolutely no one would want to play it.
Knowing that, there has to be some "give" to theme. Charalin can't get killed on sight because people WANT to play Charalin. You can't hang a guy for speaking Hill in a bar because some people WANT to speak Hill in an Arien bar. You can't burn everyone with a lazy eye for being a Mage because some people WANT to roleplay having a Lunare lazy eye. It's UNAVOIDABLE. Theme, sometimes, MUST be broken for people to stick around. I mean, do you guys honestly think that, for a second, it would be unthematic for the Knights to start busting down doors and burning randos because they want to? Arien, no. I'd argue that it's unthematic that they CAN'T do that. But I realize that the process - seeking an Inquisitor, warranting, giving the opponent time to act, writing your charges - Provides RP, a chance for people to metastasize what's happening... Honestly, those arguing for a "more pure, thematic" experience can't see the forest for the damned trees. In order for us to wind up having anyone to play with, other than a handful of horrible, sociopathic people, we HAVE to bend or bind theme where we believe it necessary. Do I believe theme enforcement to be necessary? Absolutely. Do I think Staff should be fretting over every little pboard and whine and working their asses off because some people maybe sometimes think that theme isn't being followed to the "T?" Absolutely not.
*EDIT*
My apologies, there was a personal matter that I wanted to add to the bottom of this for those claiming that the Order is cheating, playing horribly, just being dicks, etc etc. I'm not going to comment on how I believe you should join to become the change you want to see. I'm not going to point out that 8/10 people quit within a week of joining the Order and finding out how horrible it is. I'm not going to point out that the LAST time I offered for people to join the Order, literally only one person took the bait. I'm not going to nudge people into finding out how absolutely OOC'ly and IC'ly taxing being an Inquisitor is. I'm just going to leave an example of how we caught someone below, without naming any names or specific situations.
A letter was found about someone. This letter had BURN AFTER READING stamped in all caps, alternating red text, before and after the letter was finished. It was there, three times, on the page itself. Not only was this letter not burned, but there was an entire collection of letters like it. All the same. BURN AFTER READING. All with terribly damning information upon it. Guys, honestly, I understand how you think the Order is cheating and using OOC information. I understand that you believe that your tracks are 100% covered. I understand how utterly frustrating it is to be a Mage. I played one for three OOC years. But you have to understand that you have to put an iota of work into being secretive, into dedicating to your OPSEC, into vetting your friends and allies. We're not good at our jobs - That much, at the very least, I absolutely agree with. We're not even good at RP. But stuff like this happens, and you literally cannot look the other way on it.