As mentionned on the last OOC chat, the order guild suffer from a lack of enthousiasm (few people want to roleplay an orderite), and a lack of support (few characters are devout davites). I would like to share my thoughts and ideas on that subject.
1) The lore
All beauty, mystery, and fantasy has been removed from the davism lore which is mainly written to enforce the war against magery. I believe that a religious lore, in a fantasy game, should be fantastic itself, and fill with wonder the roleplayers.
Each of the saints could support its own version of the davism, to give fantasy and variety to the davism lore, allow various kind of orderites characters, and thus, attract more roleplayers in the order.
2) The heresy
There's no definition of what is heretic and what is not. The result is that you're too much easily considered as heretic. That leads to an impossible situation where the roleplayers have no freedom to roleplay the davism, must avoid the details when it comes to religion, or repeat the same usual pattern of the stern orderite.
Praying another religion should be the only reason to define someone as heretical. That would give the needed freedom to people to give depth and details to the davism, and allow for a more complex lore.
3) The code
The mages have access to the underlying truth of Urth, while the davism appears to be nothing else than an ideology. I believe that in a fantasy game, a religious lore has to be as real as stone, it has to be the reality itself, and not only a belief. The fact is that, contrarily to everything else it TI-Legacy, the davism rests entirely on the willingness of the roleplayers, and is not supported by the code.
We could use the code to give some kind of reality to the davism: a blessing could give luck or protect against disease, holy water clean some effects of magery, etc. That would encourage the player to imagine and roleplay rituals.
4) The clergy
The clergy should give hope and be loved, but since it is under the law of the inquisition, priests tend to be seen like less powerful inquisitors, inspire suspicion. As a result, few people confess.
I would find interesting that the inquisition was under the power of the clergy, ie the hunt for magery less powerful than charity. The Grand Inquisitor could be less powerfull than the archbishop, and the inquisitors less powerfull than the priests. That will improve the place of the clergy, and thus charity. And I believe that inquisitors will be more funny and easy to roleplay since they will have people behind them to support their decision, and will receive some RP friendly conflict.
A beloved order
I am absolutely in love with the idea of different branches of Davism based on Saintly traditions. While this does exist on TI, it doesn't have much meat behind it (as far as I've seen, anyway!). Fleshing out the Saintly traditions and what they mean, how their methods and means of worship differs, would be an excellent flavor addition to the Order and Davism in general. If "He's a Baccan. *eyeroll*" were as powerful an IC explanation for someone's behavior as "He's a Tubori", it would be kinda great.
On Heresy -- there actually -is- a definition of what is Heresy and what isn't, I just don't know that it's widely accessible (and thus, I don't know that it's even how Heresy is judged by most Inquisitors):
I think the idea of blessings has been brought up and dismissed as too magey in the past. No opinion on it, myself!
Placing the clergy above the inquisition is... hmmm. Interesting. I suspect it would require a huge theme rewrite, though, as Inquisitors are selected from the cream of the crop of the clergy, not the opposite. If the default was an Inquisitor and the exception was a clergyman selected because he was of superior stock, it would change a great deal, and possibly not in a good way. As it presently stands, I can't see someone being offered an inquisitorial ring taking it very often if it's a step down from being clergy.
That said, the Cardinal is above the Grand Inquisitor, and he's a clergyman. This felt a lot more vital a point when the Cardial was a player.
Edit:
I forgot to mention: I think what we desperately need for the Order is more to do -- more reasons to RP beyond brief blips and duty-filling (logging in once a month to field the one thing your character has to do is pretty common from an outside perspective). Inquisitors are engaged in tons of RP right off the bat. Priests aren't.
Some possibly crazy suggestions:
- Confessions being inviolate, so that ANYONE can go and confess to a Priest absolutely anything and not run the risk of immediate pdeath. This adds some inner turmoil in to the Priest (as it's his burden to know and deal with all this, unable to tell anyone no matter how serious it is) character and urges non-lawfuls to interact with the Order outside antagonizing or being killed by Inquisitors.
- Allow Clergy to marry. Not Inquisitors, but Clergy. Inquisitors can't have their investigatory process compromised by personal feelings and must remain removed from Urthly connection/community. Clergy should be urged to become a part of the community, and marrying into it is a great way to field that.
On Heresy -- there actually -is- a definition of what is Heresy and what isn't, I just don't know that it's widely accessible (and thus, I don't know that it's even how Heresy is judged by most Inquisitors):
I'm inclined to disagree about mages having access to the underlying truth of Urth while the Order is left in the dark. The Order is the solid, set in stone truth, while what mages know is often very subjective. They might have access to an ancient tome telling them the Lord of the Springs was a Court Demon in a silly hat, but it doesn't mean it's true, and they don't have a world-spanning, all-powerful organization to run it past for confirmation. What mages know and find out is subjective and unconfirmed, based on shaky logic and anecdotes. What the Order knows is absolutely incontrovertible.Should a person, in word or deed, defy the doctrine of the Holy Order of King Dav or the direct order of one of its members, it shall be considered heresy and subjected to review and punishment by the Holy Inquisitors.
Heresy is further defined as voicing opposition to an official statement or decision of the Holy Order or speaking publicly against the Order or its teachings. Furthermore, any case of assault or theft upon a member of the Order shall be considered Heresy as well, though this shall not absolve the defendant from secular punishment.
Intentional failure to report a case of Magery or Heresy to the Holy Inquisitors shall also be considered heresy in itself. Also considered heresy shall be the intentional telling of falsehoods or the intentional withholding of information from any member of the Holy Order. Slanderous statements made against members of the Holy Order shall also be considered Heresy.
Any secular crime committed within a church of the Holy Order shall also be considered Heresy as well, though this also will not absolve the defendant from secular punishment. Heresy shall also include the teaching, belief, condoning, or spreading of any religion other than the true Davite faith.
Furthermore, the aiding of any person in evading capture, punishment, or detection for crimes against the Church shall also be considered heresy. Punishments for Heresy are entirely dependent on the severity of the situation and shall be decided on a case-by-case basis by the Holy Inquisitors.
I think the idea of blessings has been brought up and dismissed as too magey in the past. No opinion on it, myself!
Placing the clergy above the inquisition is... hmmm. Interesting. I suspect it would require a huge theme rewrite, though, as Inquisitors are selected from the cream of the crop of the clergy, not the opposite. If the default was an Inquisitor and the exception was a clergyman selected because he was of superior stock, it would change a great deal, and possibly not in a good way. As it presently stands, I can't see someone being offered an inquisitorial ring taking it very often if it's a step down from being clergy.
That said, the Cardinal is above the Grand Inquisitor, and he's a clergyman. This felt a lot more vital a point when the Cardial was a player.
Edit:
I forgot to mention: I think what we desperately need for the Order is more to do -- more reasons to RP beyond brief blips and duty-filling (logging in once a month to field the one thing your character has to do is pretty common from an outside perspective). Inquisitors are engaged in tons of RP right off the bat. Priests aren't.
Some possibly crazy suggestions:
- Confessions being inviolate, so that ANYONE can go and confess to a Priest absolutely anything and not run the risk of immediate pdeath. This adds some inner turmoil in to the Priest (as it's his burden to know and deal with all this, unable to tell anyone no matter how serious it is) character and urges non-lawfuls to interact with the Order outside antagonizing or being killed by Inquisitors.
- Allow Clergy to marry. Not Inquisitors, but Clergy. Inquisitors can't have their investigatory process compromised by personal feelings and must remain removed from Urthly connection/community. Clergy should be urged to become a part of the community, and marrying into it is a great way to field that.
There's a lot of very interesting ideas here, and I'd like to address them one by one. For those who are unaware I'm the player of the current Archbishop, and I am also very new to the Order as I've only been playing him for about two months now. So maybe it's just because I'm newer, but a lot of these ideas are really resonating with me.
Regarding point number one, I think that the lore is actually a lot more interesting and fun than people give it credit for - but there's a reason it gets little credit, and that's because a lot of the books are hidden in the Rectory, the area you have to be a Priest or Inquisitor to enter. In there there's a whole lot of fun books on hymns and the like that add a bit of fun context to the contents of the Erra Pater. As for the saints, there is actually a well hidden helpfile (help religion Saintly Traditions) that goes into just that. Every Priest tends to follow one of the Saints' philosophies - most of the Inquisitors follow Saint Aelwyn, just due to their job description.
2. I think that this one might just be the consequence of rather harsh characters filling the roles of the Archbishop and Inquisitors lately. Personally, I enjoy the fact that heresy isn't something so carefully laid out - it adds a further layer of intrigue to racial and class relations, in my eyes. If someone is espousing a particularly mild form of heresy, is my character the type to save it for confession and keep the perpetrator anonymous? Would they instead report it to an Inquisitor, or try and correct the problem themselves and therefore possibly get involved in that heresy in the eyes of the Order?
I think the thing that most often gets overlooked by, well, nearly everyone, is that there are light punishments for light heresy. Not everyone needs to be burned at the pyre - that should be reserved for Mages and the truly unrepentant - or if the Inquisitor has a mean streak, for people they simply don't like. If people are getting burned too often, perhaps that's a sign to take up some IC umbrage with the idea? Maybe it would make you actually sympathetic to the Mages for the time being, stuff like that? Trying to find ways to stand up against your religion without getting tainted in the extreme would be a very interesting little RP arc in my opinion.
As for RPing different elements of Davism, this is where I'd finally have to say "that would be interesting RPwise BUT-". In the general time period of the game, splits in religions are very, very big deals. And when you're up against such a concrete menace as Magery, anyone who steps out of line will be immediately greeted with a sense of paranoia. This is one thing that I don't consider to be impossible in the game - just very, extremely, difficult. You would have to wait for Magery to have floated in the background a while, then bring it up with lower class acolytes and the like, slowly and silently making your way up the chain. It would be in much the same vein as starting a genuine insurrection, no matter how peaceful it is in your mind. And while that is very difficult, I also think it would be very interesting to see happen, so I don't want it to be made to happen by staff.
3. To me, half the theme of The Inquisition is the question of how one interacts with faith. Some pursue it blindly, others use it to aid their plots, and most just let it sit in the background, having it rarely come to the fore - but it is always there in the background, propping everything up. But if you take away that question of faith, make it an actual honest to god (heh) coded advantage, you lose out on a lot of that mystique. Now, I do have to say that it would probably get a lot more people into the churches and the like, and that's good. But we would lose out on many free form speeches, hymns, and blessings in favor of something that is code-based, and I don't know how much I like that. Perhaps something like combat emotes, where you're PERFORMING a blessing but putting in your own words, would be cool, and a good way to bridge the gap between our ideas.
4. This is the idea that I really, really like. Davism is all about charity, right? And yet Inquisitors kinda go around, asking questions and making people distinctly uncomfortable. And OOCly, it can be a very difficult role to play at times, and I feel like that's why people tend to dislike it, even on the player side of things. So why not make that a reality within the game, as well? Most Inquisitors are already Bishops - they've gotten religious power, they could just go to some distant part of the duchy and live in relative peace and contentment, and yet they choose to be Inquisitors. Is it because they love the power, because they crave the responsibility, because they need to do what is right? For every reason I can think of, a sacrifice in religious power simply makes sense.
After all, what greater charity is there than to give up your power for the sake of hunting Magery wherever it lurks? By forsaking the pretty towers of the Bishopric and becoming Inquisitors, they condemn themselves to a life fighting taint, with little chance for breaks, and constantly drowning in paperwork. In Lithmore they live in relative luxury, but that's only because the Magery in Lithmore is so much stronger and prevalent! In the distant reaches, perhaps they live little better than vagabonds, carrying all their belongings on a horse and going from township to township, trying to hear the suspicions of the people and find the genuine hints hidden within.
To me, decreasing the power of Inquisitors can only strengthen the interest people would have in the Order, and I am wholeheartedly behind this idea. Inquisitors will still have power, they will still be afforded the respect of nobles, but they must gain the acknowledgement of the kinder arm of the Clergy before being allowed to unleash their blades. As is, they are like two distinct parts of the Order, which seems strange because any given Inquisitor can just boss around even a full Priest as they like - because, again, most of them are already Bishops. It's a strange dichotomy, and one that I think reduces the fun and potency of the Clergy in favor for the already extremely powerful Inquisition.
It also gives more opportunities for genuine heretics to simply get off scot free, or for Inquisitors to make mistakes, and allows the life of the game to blossom a bit more. I really, really like this idea, and might actually talk to Staff about making it a reality - I don't know how much power a recent Archbishop would have, but it would be a very interesting goal for Renton to go for ICly if I can get permission. Thanks a lot for posting this, it gave me a lot of fun ideas and allowed me to think through what I consider the Church to be, without actually sitting down and reading a dozen books in one go.
Regarding point number one, I think that the lore is actually a lot more interesting and fun than people give it credit for - but there's a reason it gets little credit, and that's because a lot of the books are hidden in the Rectory, the area you have to be a Priest or Inquisitor to enter. In there there's a whole lot of fun books on hymns and the like that add a bit of fun context to the contents of the Erra Pater. As for the saints, there is actually a well hidden helpfile (help religion Saintly Traditions) that goes into just that. Every Priest tends to follow one of the Saints' philosophies - most of the Inquisitors follow Saint Aelwyn, just due to their job description.
2. I think that this one might just be the consequence of rather harsh characters filling the roles of the Archbishop and Inquisitors lately. Personally, I enjoy the fact that heresy isn't something so carefully laid out - it adds a further layer of intrigue to racial and class relations, in my eyes. If someone is espousing a particularly mild form of heresy, is my character the type to save it for confession and keep the perpetrator anonymous? Would they instead report it to an Inquisitor, or try and correct the problem themselves and therefore possibly get involved in that heresy in the eyes of the Order?
I think the thing that most often gets overlooked by, well, nearly everyone, is that there are light punishments for light heresy. Not everyone needs to be burned at the pyre - that should be reserved for Mages and the truly unrepentant - or if the Inquisitor has a mean streak, for people they simply don't like. If people are getting burned too often, perhaps that's a sign to take up some IC umbrage with the idea? Maybe it would make you actually sympathetic to the Mages for the time being, stuff like that? Trying to find ways to stand up against your religion without getting tainted in the extreme would be a very interesting little RP arc in my opinion.
As for RPing different elements of Davism, this is where I'd finally have to say "that would be interesting RPwise BUT-". In the general time period of the game, splits in religions are very, very big deals. And when you're up against such a concrete menace as Magery, anyone who steps out of line will be immediately greeted with a sense of paranoia. This is one thing that I don't consider to be impossible in the game - just very, extremely, difficult. You would have to wait for Magery to have floated in the background a while, then bring it up with lower class acolytes and the like, slowly and silently making your way up the chain. It would be in much the same vein as starting a genuine insurrection, no matter how peaceful it is in your mind. And while that is very difficult, I also think it would be very interesting to see happen, so I don't want it to be made to happen by staff.
3. To me, half the theme of The Inquisition is the question of how one interacts with faith. Some pursue it blindly, others use it to aid their plots, and most just let it sit in the background, having it rarely come to the fore - but it is always there in the background, propping everything up. But if you take away that question of faith, make it an actual honest to god (heh) coded advantage, you lose out on a lot of that mystique. Now, I do have to say that it would probably get a lot more people into the churches and the like, and that's good. But we would lose out on many free form speeches, hymns, and blessings in favor of something that is code-based, and I don't know how much I like that. Perhaps something like combat emotes, where you're PERFORMING a blessing but putting in your own words, would be cool, and a good way to bridge the gap between our ideas.
4. This is the idea that I really, really like. Davism is all about charity, right? And yet Inquisitors kinda go around, asking questions and making people distinctly uncomfortable. And OOCly, it can be a very difficult role to play at times, and I feel like that's why people tend to dislike it, even on the player side of things. So why not make that a reality within the game, as well? Most Inquisitors are already Bishops - they've gotten religious power, they could just go to some distant part of the duchy and live in relative peace and contentment, and yet they choose to be Inquisitors. Is it because they love the power, because they crave the responsibility, because they need to do what is right? For every reason I can think of, a sacrifice in religious power simply makes sense.
After all, what greater charity is there than to give up your power for the sake of hunting Magery wherever it lurks? By forsaking the pretty towers of the Bishopric and becoming Inquisitors, they condemn themselves to a life fighting taint, with little chance for breaks, and constantly drowning in paperwork. In Lithmore they live in relative luxury, but that's only because the Magery in Lithmore is so much stronger and prevalent! In the distant reaches, perhaps they live little better than vagabonds, carrying all their belongings on a horse and going from township to township, trying to hear the suspicions of the people and find the genuine hints hidden within.
To me, decreasing the power of Inquisitors can only strengthen the interest people would have in the Order, and I am wholeheartedly behind this idea. Inquisitors will still have power, they will still be afforded the respect of nobles, but they must gain the acknowledgement of the kinder arm of the Clergy before being allowed to unleash their blades. As is, they are like two distinct parts of the Order, which seems strange because any given Inquisitor can just boss around even a full Priest as they like - because, again, most of them are already Bishops. It's a strange dichotomy, and one that I think reduces the fun and potency of the Clergy in favor for the already extremely powerful Inquisition.
It also gives more opportunities for genuine heretics to simply get off scot free, or for Inquisitors to make mistakes, and allows the life of the game to blossom a bit more. I really, really like this idea, and might actually talk to Staff about making it a reality - I don't know how much power a recent Archbishop would have, but it would be a very interesting goal for Renton to go for ICly if I can get permission. Thanks a lot for posting this, it gave me a lot of fun ideas and allowed me to think through what I consider the Church to be, without actually sitting down and reading a dozen books in one go.
Characters: Jamus Grunsky, Takaro Sanche, Renton Feland
I like the idea of the clergy being open to marriage myself since it would make playing a member of it more open to the folks who enjoy their romantic rp and whatnot. Makes it feel less restrictive to play.
However, I dislike the idea of lessening the Inquisitorial claws so to speak. The game's name is literally the Inquisition and to be perfectly honest, the Inquisition should not have to answer to the clergy. They both pose entirely different roles within the church. The theme isn't built around happy fun time hug each other RP, it's built around burn the heathens.
However, I dislike the idea of lessening the Inquisitorial claws so to speak. The game's name is literally the Inquisition and to be perfectly honest, the Inquisition should not have to answer to the clergy. They both pose entirely different roles within the church. The theme isn't built around happy fun time hug each other RP, it's built around burn the heathens.
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Voxumo
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I'm wholeheartedly against any changes to the current workings of the order. The church is not suppose to be your friend, the church something that is meant to be feared and respected. And to quote what Chronodbu said, the name of the game is literally the inquisition. The core theme of this game could exist without priests, but not without the inquisition.
I sincerely hope that your request to staff to essentially decrease the power of the inquisition is denied Klapman, for it only end up making want to play inquisitors less. Afterall inquisitors come with a certain level of power, and that is what draws the very few people who play them. The power to do their job as inquisitor. Though even with that power comes obstacles, as we've seen with nosy nobles who stick their nose into inquisitorial matters and end up holding rp up or downright destroying it.
I sincerely hope that your request to staff to essentially decrease the power of the inquisition is denied Klapman, for it only end up making want to play inquisitors less. Afterall inquisitors come with a certain level of power, and that is what draws the very few people who play them. The power to do their job as inquisitor. Though even with that power comes obstacles, as we've seen with nosy nobles who stick their nose into inquisitorial matters and end up holding rp up or downright destroying it.
Lurks the Forums
I would also like to mention that I very much like the idea of the saintly traditions.
Sure, they're outlined in game but maybe something more made with them to define and set them apart from one another? Really ingrain it into the practices of the clergy which could very well give a bit of conflict in theological pursuit between clergy members while giving a springboard for RP hooks with the general community.
I wouldn't mind maybe seeing a bit more detail for combating magery on the side of the church as well, like a file outlining general rituals that they perform for denying bad spirits or 'untainting' areas. My inquisitor made up one that he used involving using mage ashes in a room at the entry points and burning a candle up until and after the midnight hour to 'burn the taint from the air' for example. Whether or not it -works- or if it's just superstition is another thing entirely.
Sometimes the RP can feel aimless because there isn't much set in stone for general practices.
Sure, they're outlined in game but maybe something more made with them to define and set them apart from one another? Really ingrain it into the practices of the clergy which could very well give a bit of conflict in theological pursuit between clergy members while giving a springboard for RP hooks with the general community.
I wouldn't mind maybe seeing a bit more detail for combating magery on the side of the church as well, like a file outlining general rituals that they perform for denying bad spirits or 'untainting' areas. My inquisitor made up one that he used involving using mage ashes in a room at the entry points and burning a candle up until and after the midnight hour to 'burn the taint from the air' for example. Whether or not it -works- or if it's just superstition is another thing entirely.
Sometimes the RP can feel aimless because there isn't much set in stone for general practices.
Grab bag reply!
1) Inviolate Confessional: The totally inviolate confessional is intriguing, and I think I like it, but I can't see how it would work for magery without kinda taking the heart out of Davism. An inviolate confessional belongs to a religion where there isn't a single sin that will damn you completely and forever without your death to atone for it, after all. Completely inviolate except for magery?
2) Non-mystical lore: Criticism of the lore for lacking mysticism is fine, but I think it isn't informed by context. Davism made no sense and had no central core before the new EP. The new EP was written to be the backbone of the faith, not to be the entirety of it. There is TONS of room to flesh the religion out beyond what exists - the EP is very light on details about the creation of the world, the lives of the saints, the afterlife, etc. So long as it doesn't directly contradict what's there, you could do so many things. I'll admit the fact that the Lord doesn't speak to people/is a passive god causes problems, but they can be worked around with a bit of ingenuity. People can still have visions and call themselves "inspired" by the Lord without having to claim the Lord actively sent them a vision. Someone can write a Dante-esque wandering through the different possible afterlives and it still be a totally legitimate document. There's room to expand! You just have to do it within the limits of what is established.
3) Priests and Inquisitors: One thing about Inquisitors: they are NOT mostly Bishops, it's just that all Bishops are given permission to be Inquisitors by default. The average Inquisitor is a priest who then did Inquisitorial training and was given the rank of Inquisitor. They are -not- the average priest's boss; they work in different spheres.
EDIT: Just realized the helpfiles say this, so my bad! However, in practice, I don't think this has always been true of the apped in Inquisitors and the guild rank structure is not written to require you be anything higher than 'Priest' before you can be raised to Inquisitor.
I don't think the Inquisition is the face of the Order because they have 'more power' in some bureaucratic sense; it's because they ARE a more necessary and visible part of the game, and they can kill your PC while priests don't. So I don't think putting priests "first" would really change anything with the Order's popularity. Probably having fewer people play the trope of the stern, jerkass Inquisitor would help, as would having more people embrace theme and the Inquisition as being for their own good, but both involve telling people what to RP in a way that's 1) kinda rude and 2) never works anyway. People gonna play what they want to play.
That said, I think the answer is more priests doing their priestly work more obviously, and maintaining a strict separation so priests don't do more Inquisition-wise than report troublesome cases. And for would-be priests, I think the job's rarely been rosier. I find as a priest lately there's tons to do whenever I log on, and general procedures are well-enough laid out for priests in the book I wrote (which of course I would think, but). People seem increasingly intrigued to interact with priests and solicit blessings, etc.
Now, I've long felt allowing priests (but not Inquisitors) to marry would be extremely helpful in making the religion appeal to people who won't play it right now, because that's what we need - ways to make people who WON'T play Orderites right now play Orderites. But for those who might be interested... there really is a lot to do.
1) Inviolate Confessional: The totally inviolate confessional is intriguing, and I think I like it, but I can't see how it would work for magery without kinda taking the heart out of Davism. An inviolate confessional belongs to a religion where there isn't a single sin that will damn you completely and forever without your death to atone for it, after all. Completely inviolate except for magery?
2) Non-mystical lore: Criticism of the lore for lacking mysticism is fine, but I think it isn't informed by context. Davism made no sense and had no central core before the new EP. The new EP was written to be the backbone of the faith, not to be the entirety of it. There is TONS of room to flesh the religion out beyond what exists - the EP is very light on details about the creation of the world, the lives of the saints, the afterlife, etc. So long as it doesn't directly contradict what's there, you could do so many things. I'll admit the fact that the Lord doesn't speak to people/is a passive god causes problems, but they can be worked around with a bit of ingenuity. People can still have visions and call themselves "inspired" by the Lord without having to claim the Lord actively sent them a vision. Someone can write a Dante-esque wandering through the different possible afterlives and it still be a totally legitimate document. There's room to expand! You just have to do it within the limits of what is established.
3) Priests and Inquisitors: One thing about Inquisitors: they are NOT mostly Bishops, it's just that all Bishops are given permission to be Inquisitors by default. The average Inquisitor is a priest who then did Inquisitorial training and was given the rank of Inquisitor. They are -not- the average priest's boss; they work in different spheres.
EDIT: Just realized the helpfiles say this, so my bad! However, in practice, I don't think this has always been true of the apped in Inquisitors and the guild rank structure is not written to require you be anything higher than 'Priest' before you can be raised to Inquisitor.
I don't think the Inquisition is the face of the Order because they have 'more power' in some bureaucratic sense; it's because they ARE a more necessary and visible part of the game, and they can kill your PC while priests don't. So I don't think putting priests "first" would really change anything with the Order's popularity. Probably having fewer people play the trope of the stern, jerkass Inquisitor would help, as would having more people embrace theme and the Inquisition as being for their own good, but both involve telling people what to RP in a way that's 1) kinda rude and 2) never works anyway. People gonna play what they want to play.
That said, I think the answer is more priests doing their priestly work more obviously, and maintaining a strict separation so priests don't do more Inquisition-wise than report troublesome cases. And for would-be priests, I think the job's rarely been rosier. I find as a priest lately there's tons to do whenever I log on, and general procedures are well-enough laid out for priests in the book I wrote (which of course I would think, but). People seem increasingly intrigued to interact with priests and solicit blessings, etc.
Now, I've long felt allowing priests (but not Inquisitors) to marry would be extremely helpful in making the religion appeal to people who won't play it right now, because that's what we need - ways to make people who WON'T play Orderites right now play Orderites. But for those who might be interested... there really is a lot to do.
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Voxumo
- Posts: 655
- Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:54 am
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Also remembered something regarding the origins of the order. While order technically existed, in some form, before Dav's famous consolidation, it wasn't anywhere near the power it was after the consolidation. Why is that? Because it was Dav who really kicked off the inquisition, as such the holy order of Dav was made to facilitate the inquisition. The clergy were an afterthought, or at least that is my impression. We wouldn't have an order if not for Dav's Inquisition, so by extension the Inquisition was the origins of the order, and by right should be the main focus.
Lurks the Forums
Thoughts in no particular order:
Inviolate confessions: This was always the case in the past by lore and practice, but may have slipped off how it is practiced at some stage? Pretty much as suggested above, inviolate except for those 'soul destroying' things like magery or arch-heresy. As past Grand Inquisitors/Cardinals, I flatly refused the consideration of any evidence obtained through confession outside of these. In any case, I'm all for the return of 'near inviolate' confessions.
Saintly traditions as more distinctly different takes on the religion: Yes please! I'd love to even see all priest types register what sort of Davite tradition they (currently) follow so that it sits in the score- it'll help to drive it home more. Perhaps if it is developed enough, it could be something wherein even lay members ascribe to different takes with different chapels, etc.
Marriage: Meh, not for me. I find the denial, edging around and potential hypocrisy in the celibacy vows more interesting than just another character that can get married. It would, if it was restricted to priests only, limit in game recruitment into the Inquisition if half of the guild is ineligible to flip over and thus make finding Inquisitors even harder than at present.
Priest Side Stronger than Inquisitor Side: It has merit, but I don't think it will fly without diluting the core theme of the game. The Inquisition needs to stay strong and dominant. Granted, since few people want to play the Team 1 Bad Guys (Inquisitors), a general thematic overhaul may be potentially worthwhile- but that is likely a conversation for another time and place.
Inviolate confessions: This was always the case in the past by lore and practice, but may have slipped off how it is practiced at some stage? Pretty much as suggested above, inviolate except for those 'soul destroying' things like magery or arch-heresy. As past Grand Inquisitors/Cardinals, I flatly refused the consideration of any evidence obtained through confession outside of these. In any case, I'm all for the return of 'near inviolate' confessions.
Saintly traditions as more distinctly different takes on the religion: Yes please! I'd love to even see all priest types register what sort of Davite tradition they (currently) follow so that it sits in the score- it'll help to drive it home more. Perhaps if it is developed enough, it could be something wherein even lay members ascribe to different takes with different chapels, etc.
Marriage: Meh, not for me. I find the denial, edging around and potential hypocrisy in the celibacy vows more interesting than just another character that can get married. It would, if it was restricted to priests only, limit in game recruitment into the Inquisition if half of the guild is ineligible to flip over and thus make finding Inquisitors even harder than at present.
Priest Side Stronger than Inquisitor Side: It has merit, but I don't think it will fly without diluting the core theme of the game. The Inquisition needs to stay strong and dominant. Granted, since few people want to play the Team 1 Bad Guys (Inquisitors), a general thematic overhaul may be potentially worthwhile- but that is likely a conversation for another time and place.
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Applesauce
- Posts: 291
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:13 pm
I like the idea of inviolate confessions, whether or not that's how it's already supposed to be. Again, assuming you don't confess "I am a mage/heretic" or "I knowingly helped a mage/heretic" then you should be able to discuss what would have been the proper course of action rather than your sin, perform some sort of physical and/or monetary penance, and go about your merry way.
If that's how things are supposed to be already, it's not clear to the general public. I would LOVE to confess on a regular basis, if not for the (perhaps unfounded?) fear that even repeating very minor sins would lead to undeserved suspicion of Bigger Stuff.
No big opinion on the rest, other than there IS precedent for fantastical mythical lore in the Davite religion.......... LOTS's spring out of nowhere for Dav, anyone? I think there is plenty of room for the church to declare certain things "miracles" and outside the realm of magic or taint. Even if it's an OOCly arbitrary line, it's the church who decides, so if a Saint healed someone from seemingly mortal wounds, it's a miracle. If Joe Schmoe does it, it's magic.
If that's how things are supposed to be already, it's not clear to the general public. I would LOVE to confess on a regular basis, if not for the (perhaps unfounded?) fear that even repeating very minor sins would lead to undeserved suspicion of Bigger Stuff.
No big opinion on the rest, other than there IS precedent for fantastical mythical lore in the Davite religion.......... LOTS's spring out of nowhere for Dav, anyone? I think there is plenty of room for the church to declare certain things "miracles" and outside the realm of magic or taint. Even if it's an OOCly arbitrary line, it's the church who decides, so if a Saint healed someone from seemingly mortal wounds, it's a miracle. If Joe Schmoe does it, it's magic.
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