As you all know, staff are fairly hands off on TI. This means that sometimes players get away with 'unthematic' behavior. A lot of RPIs have staff members interceding, but one of TI's staff prime directives is "Don't interfere with player agency."
As far as enforcing theme goes, staff on TI tend to:
- Clean up obviously non-thematic text in public spaces, like removing rumors that wouldn't realistically circulate in the given circles
- Try to educate players with help files and discussions like our Topic of the Week
- RP VNPCs along 'thematic' lines
- Really egregious distortion of theme, like naming yourself Deathstalker or trying to invent lazers, will get renames or a verbal correction from yours truly, but it has to be pretty big to get policy's attention/intervention
Is this enough for you? What have you seen staff do on other RPIs? Was it good or bad for those games? Do you want and expect more from TI's staff with regards to theme enforcement?
[Poll] Enforcing Theme
I like you guys just where you are in terms of thematic enforcing, mostly because more rigidly enforced theme is likely to be problematic. Even with strict guidelines, different staffers are going to enforce the guidelines different ways, and that's just going to make it confusing. Plus, you guys do enough as it is, do you really want to have to do even *more*?
I like the hands-off sandbox. I don't want the grown ups interfering in my play just because one of them thinks that my slightly offbeat way of going about things is unthematic, when the truth is that there's just a long background story to it that is perfectly reasonable but that I'd rather not spend paragraph upon paragraph explaining.
Shasa is the perfect example. She was not what most would think of as a "thematic" noble, but I put things in her background to make her the way she was. I gave her a crazy mother, having been trapped on a deserted island for two years, and her being Tubori, who are basically the Hillmen of nobles, anyways.
I like the hands-off sandbox. I don't want the grown ups interfering in my play just because one of them thinks that my slightly offbeat way of going about things is unthematic, when the truth is that there's just a long background story to it that is perfectly reasonable but that I'd rather not spend paragraph upon paragraph explaining.
Shasa is the perfect example. She was not what most would think of as a "thematic" noble, but I put things in her background to make her the way she was. I gave her a crazy mother, having been trapped on a deserted island for two years, and her being Tubori, who are basically the Hillmen of nobles, anyways.
I guess I need a little more context. In the other games I have played staff have monitored "the stream" and made pointers and chastisements via the equivalent of tells for people who stray too far from the theme.
I think that if we stay with the paradigm of staff being uninvolved, though, then we need to be better as player in self correcting theme. If we want staff to be more forceful then they need to be more involved in monitoring RP for infractions.
I also think there should be a clarification on the difference between un-themely and anachronistic illustration. For Example I would say:
Un-themely: Gerolf sighs, "After the last sermon, I have just been trying to stay under the radar the last few weeks."
anachronistic illustration: Gerolf narrows watches her lips with laser focus, "I see. Well that is certainly one way to do it."
I will admit that anachronistic illustration can be immersion breaking, but at the same time can be used to provide a context to modern players. Would that get a chastisement?
I think that if we stay with the paradigm of staff being uninvolved, though, then we need to be better as player in self correcting theme. If we want staff to be more forceful then they need to be more involved in monitoring RP for infractions.
I also think there should be a clarification on the difference between un-themely and anachronistic illustration. For Example I would say:
Un-themely: Gerolf sighs, "After the last sermon, I have just been trying to stay under the radar the last few weeks."
anachronistic illustration: Gerolf narrows watches her lips with laser focus, "I see. Well that is certainly one way to do it."
I will admit that anachronistic illustration can be immersion breaking, but at the same time can be used to provide a context to modern players. Would that get a chastisement?
I am on the fence, because while I like the hands-off enforcement (and lack of nitpickery); I think that what little pockets of unthematic behaviour we do have are bad enough to be distractingly problematic (and thus make the problem look larger than it truly is). I would like to see this as a case-by-case thing, perhaps put in place a negative feedback mechanic - say if a player insists on behaving unthematically and gets flagged for it enough by others; that player gets a talking to. I think the playerbase as a large may be far less hung up on certain forms of unthematic behaviour staffers may be inclined to zero in in on, and it would regulate theme in a way that is better suited to what the players themselves expect from the setting, and not that seem to come down from on high.
ETA - An anonymous negative feedback mechanic, as I feel like a lot of people don't directly intervene in scenes for fear of being That Person.
ETA - An anonymous negative feedback mechanic, as I feel like a lot of people don't directly intervene in scenes for fear of being That Person.
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BattleJenkins
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 5:00 pm
As much as I do think a bit more theme enforcement needs to happen, I think that anonymous negative feedback would not be the way to go, even if the players on the receiving end never even see them. RP communities are already highly prone to drama and resentment bubbling just beneath the surface whenever there's friction, and I think that an anonymous complain system would only exacerbate this and end up being used as a vector for drama and harassment, which would likely spoil any potential benefit.
I think that the way to do it might be to have staff occasionally nudge RP in a more themely direction using the game world itself wherever possible. Players generally respond to their environment, rather than overt statements of theme and suggestions for more game-appropriate behavior. NPC mobs that react to players based on race and status and the like are one idea - maybe even having staff-puppeted NPCs to interact with in certain public areas might help too. Staff contributions and curation of rumors could also be a thing.
I have some more ideas on this, but lunch breeeeaaaak
I think that the way to do it might be to have staff occasionally nudge RP in a more themely direction using the game world itself wherever possible. Players generally respond to their environment, rather than overt statements of theme and suggestions for more game-appropriate behavior. NPC mobs that react to players based on race and status and the like are one idea - maybe even having staff-puppeted NPCs to interact with in certain public areas might help too. Staff contributions and curation of rumors could also be a thing.
I have some more ideas on this, but lunch breeeeaaaak
I think that Player Aides/Citizens used to assist with this somewhat, as an authoritative yet player-side voice, they could speak to another player if something was thematically out or refer it to staff if it was egregious.
Generally, however, I'm pretty content with staff's level of interjection into the theme.
As an example, what sort of additional actions would staff theoretically take, if they were to start enforcing theme more directly?
Generally, however, I'm pretty content with staff's level of interjection into the theme.
As an example, what sort of additional actions would staff theoretically take, if they were to start enforcing theme more directly?
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BattleJenkins
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 5:00 pm
In broad terms, from a game design standpoint, what this is is a problem of unwanted player behavior. The game has a fairly rigid theme which many players aren't playing to. Unfortunately, simply telling the players to cease the unwanted behavior and expecting them to comply on their own is often the very least effective way of correcting it. So, let's take a look at this problem - that is, "Players are not playing to theme" - and then look at why that might be. It probably varies from individual to individual, but I think I may have a few ideas of what might be the most common:
- Player doesn't know the theme
- The theme is not fun or rewarding to play to
- The player is willing to accept the consequences to play against theme, but the consequences never come
So let's take a look at each one of these individually, and what might be the cause of these problems and perhaps how to solve them.
The first one, player doesn't know the theme - most of the information of how to play the theme is tucked away in helpfiles. If it weren't for the other players' behavior, players of this game would otherwise have almost no clue how to play the theme. This is especially a problem since we've already established that not all players play to theme. You could take all the game mechanics of TI:Legacy and apply it to another game with a completely different society and culture - you could even likely do this with the grid and the mobs. We generally throw people into a world where the only way to intuit the proper behavior of their characters is to read a massive amount of often dry, clinical text. This, to me, is an accessibility issue - players who are unable to focus or properly absorb information this way, especially when they are expected to be proactive about it, become our "problem" players despite being enthusiastic and capable roleplayers otherwise. We can correct this by more proactively infusing the game itself with the theme, making it more present on the grid and in the game mechanics themselves. I think the move toward making gentry specify and manage their assets is a good example of a great step in this direction, and I'd love to brainstorm more ideas of how we can take the theme and "gamify" it to integrate it more into the game itself.
The second one, the theme is not fun or rewarding to play to - this can be trickier to deal with. I'm not saying our theme is inherently bad, but we need to acknowledge that many aspects of it are generally unappealing. I could, truthfully, describe TI:L as "A game where you are expected to pretend to be a racist, and not at all get rewarded for it". That description would definitely not win us any new players! The theme of TI:L is an incredibly intriguing and romantic one, of people trying to survive in a society of oppression and deep, ingrained prejudice. Unfortunately, we expect the vast majority of our playerbase to play the role of the oppressors. This is, generally speaking, not the perspective that most of these stories are written from, and many players want to identify or otherwise root for their own characters to at least some degree. Without a whole lot of incentive to play to the more unappealing aspects of theme, players will understandably avoid them. This also goes for other aspects such as romance and arranged marriages for the upper class characters - a lot of people who may be invested and sympathetic to their characters don't want to see them married off to a perfect stranger. If we don't want these unappealing parts of theme to be downplayed, they need to be incentivized - and with staff's current, completely hands off policy, they are barely incentivized, if at all. Of course, these themes are not universally unappealing to play to - I've seen players play to theme extremely well, prejudice and arranged marriages alike, but we need to acknowledge that this may not come naturally to many, if not most, of our players, and to make things a bit easier on them in this regard.
This also plays into the last problem I pointed out - the player is willing to accept the consequences to play against theme, but the consequences never come. Because staff is so hands-off, consequences to playing against theme must come from other players, which has proven to not be enough, since there are enough obstacles in the way of playing to theme that un-themely players will always be able to find allies and play-partners. Even I run into this - I play an especially meek character who becomes nauseous at whippings and burnings, and I've tried to invite consequences for this and other unthemely behavior, but consequences have been few and far between. Something I think might help combat this is to let players "call themselves out" for unthemely behavior and invite the staff to inflict judgment on them from the NPC populace in exchange for some sort of OOC reward, like a nice QP payout or something similar.
I'm sorry if swaths of this were incoherent - I wrote this at work in bursts between calls - but I hope that there are some good ideas in here, and that we can mine some solutions out of it and the ensuing discussion!
- Player doesn't know the theme
- The theme is not fun or rewarding to play to
- The player is willing to accept the consequences to play against theme, but the consequences never come
So let's take a look at each one of these individually, and what might be the cause of these problems and perhaps how to solve them.
The first one, player doesn't know the theme - most of the information of how to play the theme is tucked away in helpfiles. If it weren't for the other players' behavior, players of this game would otherwise have almost no clue how to play the theme. This is especially a problem since we've already established that not all players play to theme. You could take all the game mechanics of TI:Legacy and apply it to another game with a completely different society and culture - you could even likely do this with the grid and the mobs. We generally throw people into a world where the only way to intuit the proper behavior of their characters is to read a massive amount of often dry, clinical text. This, to me, is an accessibility issue - players who are unable to focus or properly absorb information this way, especially when they are expected to be proactive about it, become our "problem" players despite being enthusiastic and capable roleplayers otherwise. We can correct this by more proactively infusing the game itself with the theme, making it more present on the grid and in the game mechanics themselves. I think the move toward making gentry specify and manage their assets is a good example of a great step in this direction, and I'd love to brainstorm more ideas of how we can take the theme and "gamify" it to integrate it more into the game itself.
The second one, the theme is not fun or rewarding to play to - this can be trickier to deal with. I'm not saying our theme is inherently bad, but we need to acknowledge that many aspects of it are generally unappealing. I could, truthfully, describe TI:L as "A game where you are expected to pretend to be a racist, and not at all get rewarded for it". That description would definitely not win us any new players! The theme of TI:L is an incredibly intriguing and romantic one, of people trying to survive in a society of oppression and deep, ingrained prejudice. Unfortunately, we expect the vast majority of our playerbase to play the role of the oppressors. This is, generally speaking, not the perspective that most of these stories are written from, and many players want to identify or otherwise root for their own characters to at least some degree. Without a whole lot of incentive to play to the more unappealing aspects of theme, players will understandably avoid them. This also goes for other aspects such as romance and arranged marriages for the upper class characters - a lot of people who may be invested and sympathetic to their characters don't want to see them married off to a perfect stranger. If we don't want these unappealing parts of theme to be downplayed, they need to be incentivized - and with staff's current, completely hands off policy, they are barely incentivized, if at all. Of course, these themes are not universally unappealing to play to - I've seen players play to theme extremely well, prejudice and arranged marriages alike, but we need to acknowledge that this may not come naturally to many, if not most, of our players, and to make things a bit easier on them in this regard.
This also plays into the last problem I pointed out - the player is willing to accept the consequences to play against theme, but the consequences never come. Because staff is so hands-off, consequences to playing against theme must come from other players, which has proven to not be enough, since there are enough obstacles in the way of playing to theme that un-themely players will always be able to find allies and play-partners. Even I run into this - I play an especially meek character who becomes nauseous at whippings and burnings, and I've tried to invite consequences for this and other unthemely behavior, but consequences have been few and far between. Something I think might help combat this is to let players "call themselves out" for unthemely behavior and invite the staff to inflict judgment on them from the NPC populace in exchange for some sort of OOC reward, like a nice QP payout or something similar.
I'm sorry if swaths of this were incoherent - I wrote this at work in bursts between calls - but I hope that there are some good ideas in here, and that we can mine some solutions out of it and the ensuing discussion!
I think my use of anonymous was misconstrued; I see it more as a system like recommendations, as we have now, if you can give a justified, constructive nudge which is supported by evidence (and then approved by staff), I don't see why constructive feedback should need a name attached to it, exactly for the resentment reason BattleJenkins pointed out. I have a huge problem with our only potential correction for unthematic behaviour being 'hoping the person changes'. Players who get nudged by the environment, especially when it comes to rumours and VNPCs are usually 1. Not happy, because they are getting negative feedback and no one is telling them why; 2. Feel bullied, because the rumours are 100% anonymous and the VNPCs being puppeted by staff makes staffers look exasperated.
Neither of these things are the point.
Our only two solutions, as I see it, are coming outright out against people who flout theme (which is apparently unpopular) or actively removing those elements of theme which people are not naturally drawn to playing. I am of the mind that several bits of our theme are stretched too thin (we want religious extremism and classism and racism and everything-ism and it's just not going to happen). Making our thematic structure tidier would go a long way into facilitating integration of new players (by removing the need to accumulate too much knowledge before they can play a thematic character) and in giving a neat structure for people to play against.
Neither of these things are the point.
Our only two solutions, as I see it, are coming outright out against people who flout theme (which is apparently unpopular) or actively removing those elements of theme which people are not naturally drawn to playing. I am of the mind that several bits of our theme are stretched too thin (we want religious extremism and classism and racism and everything-ism and it's just not going to happen). Making our thematic structure tidier would go a long way into facilitating integration of new players (by removing the need to accumulate too much knowledge before they can play a thematic character) and in giving a neat structure for people to play against.
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BattleJenkins
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 5:00 pm
I would just like to chime in and say that I, too, am also for delving into the theme a bit and trying to change it around or pare it down to something a bit more lean and palatable! I think we can do so without losing the game's core identity.
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Voxumo
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- Discord Handle: Voxumo#7925
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I'm rather against this idea of removing parts of theme just to make it easier for people to play the game. I'm sorry but I've always held that 'If a person doesn't want to put time into learning the game, including it's theme, well then we are better off without them'
Quality over quantity. Changing theme that has been in place for many years just to accommodate new players is ridiculous. Afterall for text-based games the theme is what makes the game's world since it lacks graphics to illustrate the world around the player.
Though what might help more is having a 'summary' helpfile with what the current community considers important theme related material that every player should know and follow. This way instead of having to trudge through helpfiles with information that may not be that important to the game they can focus on helpfiles that are immediately important to the game and their character's future within it.
Quality over quantity. Changing theme that has been in place for many years just to accommodate new players is ridiculous. Afterall for text-based games the theme is what makes the game's world since it lacks graphics to illustrate the world around the player.
Though what might help more is having a 'summary' helpfile with what the current community considers important theme related material that every player should know and follow. This way instead of having to trudge through helpfiles with information that may not be that important to the game they can focus on helpfiles that are immediately important to the game and their character's future within it.
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