I know, I know: good riddance! But I wanted to raise one issue on my way out the door, because I think it's OOCly important.
I think the game has stumbled into a mild form of OOC racism.
I (briefly) played Rugg, a bonehead. One of his bonehead-isms, per 'help racism,' was ... racism. Rugg was never intentionally malicious, but if 'racism is a major part of the theme,' as the helpfile says, it had to be a part of him.
And here is my caveat: I am not objecting to how anyone played their PC! First, because I don't have a right to, and second, because I never actually disliked how anyone played their PC! Playing an anti-racist PC is awesome! To my mind, it's as cool as playing a heretic, and should be as exciting and slightly dangerous, violating some deeply-held social norms.
My problem is exclusively with the staff's refusal to maintain the theme. (Or as they'd say, to 'micromanage RP.') This is where things get questionable. If you identify this fictional world as pervasively racist, then you have to think what that means. It doesn't mean, 'a few individuals say naughty things, and there are a few additional hurdles and limits.'
That's not deep societal racism. In a very racist society, there is systemic and institutional bias. The vast majority of npcs will not just quietly feel racism, but will act to socially (and economically and possibly physically) express racism and punish anti-racism. It is staff's job to make that bias felt. Otherwise, you end up with an offensively privileged theory of racism: that it's a minor inconvenience.
So I strongly urge the staff to do one of two things. Either:
1) change the helpfile to say that there's 'mild' racism in the game-world, or
2) implement a policy in which NPCs support racism. Perhaps a command that flags a PC for violating racist norms in public, which comes with a log, which staff can check to dock the 'rebellious' character Influence Points? If the Grand Inquisitor takes a public stand against racism, she should soon find herself not so 'Grand,' and if she continues on that path, not an 'Inquisitor' at all. That's systemic & institutional racism.
The comment about not 'micromanaging' strikes me as nonresponsive. If the Knights and Order started saying, "You know, mages aren't so bad, and as long as they don't -use- magic we won't pyre them," I'm fairly certain that staff would 'micromanage' that RP. If racism is as influential in Lithmore as it was in, say, early 20th century US (to say nothing of 21st century political rallies), staff should do the same for it.
Once again: absolutely nothing against how any player played her or his PC.
(And full disclosure: I actually played one previous PC here, years ago, and ran into precisely this same problem. I never quite figured out why it bothered me so much, until now. I think it's a very mild and unintentional form of racism, which diminishes how serious racism really is, but it's still a disconcerting one, and fairly easily addressed.)
Uncomfortable With Legacy Racism
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BattleJenkins
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 5:00 pm
Thanks for your input! I think that this problem is due to a combination of factors, namely that:
A) The staff generally let players dictate the specifics of the theme wherever possible, and
B) The players as a whole are generally unfamiliar with the systemic basis of racism, and/or
C) Nobody wants to play a racist!
It can be hard to get the players on board with some of the more brutal aspects of the theme - if I recall correctly, in the past of the game the playerbase was heavily biased toward siding with the mages morally, and a huge amount of effort went into making the Order more sympathetic and to introduce more evil mages through plots. I imagine a similar amount of upheaval will be needed to make IC racism the norm.
In any case, I certainly don't think that the fantasy racism in TI:L is meant to be a commentary on racism in real life either way, but whatever it's meant to be certainly doesn't change how it comes across, so it's definitely a problem if it came across that way for you. Thank you for raising your concerns!
A) The staff generally let players dictate the specifics of the theme wherever possible, and
B) The players as a whole are generally unfamiliar with the systemic basis of racism, and/or
C) Nobody wants to play a racist!
It can be hard to get the players on board with some of the more brutal aspects of the theme - if I recall correctly, in the past of the game the playerbase was heavily biased toward siding with the mages morally, and a huge amount of effort went into making the Order more sympathetic and to introduce more evil mages through plots. I imagine a similar amount of upheaval will be needed to make IC racism the norm.
In any case, I certainly don't think that the fantasy racism in TI:L is meant to be a commentary on racism in real life either way, but whatever it's meant to be certainly doesn't change how it comes across, so it's definitely a problem if it came across that way for you. Thank you for raising your concerns!
To clarify, the staff policy isn't really that we don't support the racist theme or that we don't want to maintain the theme. It's that it's not our policy to dictate how players should play the game or comment on their roleplay. We try not to get involved. Sometimes it drives us crazy and we really want to do what we can to make people embrace those harder parts of theme, but our policy believes that it is best to always uphold and we can't pick and choose.
That said, we do what we can. We will grant recommends when we see this, for sure. Embracing challenging roleplay to try a world or role that feels different from our own is something rewarding about roleplay and part of the experience of what might a medieval sort of mindset be like - we'd love to encourage that more. Beyond player roleplay, we will support the mindset in any RP that we control - NPCs from any RPA will hold those views as will NPCs we enact for plots. Code supports racist sorts of ideals - Charali and Hillmen cannot be considered gentry by code, even if they rise up to roles where this would otherwise make sense, for example. If we have to make staff-based decisions on things, we'll take these views and actions into account. Because we try to keep things fairly player controlled, this doesn't happen a lot and some things in theme end up reflected to different degrees than we would have chosen. When it gets to official actions and announcement type things, we take a stance on not proliferating anti-theme items. We're not going to post an announcement that the Order is now accepting mages if they avoid actively using mages (and we won't punish an inquisitor who does it quietly and tries to keep it on the downlow), and we're not going to post an announcement that the Charali people are henceforth not to be considered savages, but are instead equally valuable to Lithmorran people.
As for the racist-ness of having racism in the game, I've always considered it to be the natural extension of a simple view that it isn't right to be open to new ideas and that there is one best, right way, and a best race. This is so different from how I've always been taught to approach things and how I look at the world that it is a fascinating way to try to understand how this could come to be, and how we could have had a world where that wasn't the way it was.
That said, we do what we can. We will grant recommends when we see this, for sure. Embracing challenging roleplay to try a world or role that feels different from our own is something rewarding about roleplay and part of the experience of what might a medieval sort of mindset be like - we'd love to encourage that more. Beyond player roleplay, we will support the mindset in any RP that we control - NPCs from any RPA will hold those views as will NPCs we enact for plots. Code supports racist sorts of ideals - Charali and Hillmen cannot be considered gentry by code, even if they rise up to roles where this would otherwise make sense, for example. If we have to make staff-based decisions on things, we'll take these views and actions into account. Because we try to keep things fairly player controlled, this doesn't happen a lot and some things in theme end up reflected to different degrees than we would have chosen. When it gets to official actions and announcement type things, we take a stance on not proliferating anti-theme items. We're not going to post an announcement that the Order is now accepting mages if they avoid actively using mages (and we won't punish an inquisitor who does it quietly and tries to keep it on the downlow), and we're not going to post an announcement that the Charali people are henceforth not to be considered savages, but are instead equally valuable to Lithmorran people.
As for the racist-ness of having racism in the game, I've always considered it to be the natural extension of a simple view that it isn't right to be open to new ideas and that there is one best, right way, and a best race. This is so different from how I've always been taught to approach things and how I look at the world that it is a fascinating way to try to understand how this could come to be, and how we could have had a world where that wasn't the way it was.
I would just add that it isn't always cut and dry. You can think the Hillfolk are idiots but still respect a specific Hillman for saving your life and befriending them. Also there are social considerations. The one scene you had with me, I think, you insulted the home duchy of your social superior. You can feel like your race gives you some moral advantage but so does social standing.
Tell a Vandagan Count you are better than them, you better be able to back it up or you are going to have the skin flayed from your back for acting outside your station.
Tell a Vandagan Count you are better than them, you better be able to back it up or you are going to have the skin flayed from your back for acting outside your station.
That's the thing about racism - a lot of people will be racist against groups as a whole but make exceptions for individuals. Tokenism. There's also a lot of different kinds of racism - not everyone is Archie Bunker. There are all sorts of patronizing racists out there who don't hate people of other ethnicities, but view them as somehow inferior or otherwise look down on them. "White man's burden" and that sort of nonsense. The whole "noble savage" trope too. It might be more fruitful to look to players to play up those aspects of the theme if there's a desire for it.
I absolutely see where you're coming from, but in the defense of the Imms, its an incredibly touchy subject for anyone - much less the managers of a MUD - to defend in any way. To be perfectly honest, I'm surprised they do what they do for it, as I... Wouldn't really have the nads to stand up as an Imm and say that such a thing was encouraged or discouraged, regardless of theme.
I do wanna preface this by saying that I've gotten a *ton* of recommendations from players on maintaining theme with Smith on this subject. Thank you all very much, as I've been OOCly kicked out of multiple games for "playing the character" like that. The support I've received in being a nasty bastard is amazing.
Now for the subject matter. I personally believe the theme to this MUD implies a good deal of racism - obviously most, if not all players, aren't going to be able to put themselves in the mindset of a medieval character, especially when we've pretty much gone our entire lives being taught that such ideals are toxic. That being said, I've found that the healthiest way to play a "racist character" here isn't to limit RP with the other players of a different race (which I tried, and failed at lol), but rather to adopt a certain kind of mindset, which is far less offensive. The way I've played it thats been most popular is "Lithmorrans are superior, but have an *obligation* to assist lesser races." This can take many forms! The best I've seen is our current plot to "enrich" the Charali race. Personally it's been great, because Smith can make snide comments about "horse-effers," and "Thirty Days, amirite?" IC situations that have helpfiles to back them up. Being a snide, cynical bastard doesn't *stop* people from RP'ing with you. Sure, it makes it... Unpleasant, and oft-times stressful and things? But it doesn't force them from a room. On the other side of that, it also allows for "Kindly racism," wherein, for example, a Lithmorran character deals with a Hillman because... Oh, you know... Hillmen are just special. They need to be nurtured and cared for because they dont have the benefit of a Lithmorran set of ideals, those poor beasts... It's demeaning, it's insulting - and it leads to some *hilarious* RP down the road.
In the end, my opinion is that this matter lies with the players. Imm's shouldnt be made to support one position or the other (as some folks feel ever-so-strongly about the subject), but the players should reinforce it - maybe not with IC support? But with recommendations, QP awards, and the like. After all - we players come and go, but the Imms have to stay! They're burdened with that, and we're free to come and go as we please, if the going gets rough. But yeah! Always an interesting subject to touch on, thanks for starting the discussion!
I do wanna preface this by saying that I've gotten a *ton* of recommendations from players on maintaining theme with Smith on this subject. Thank you all very much, as I've been OOCly kicked out of multiple games for "playing the character" like that. The support I've received in being a nasty bastard is amazing.
Now for the subject matter. I personally believe the theme to this MUD implies a good deal of racism - obviously most, if not all players, aren't going to be able to put themselves in the mindset of a medieval character, especially when we've pretty much gone our entire lives being taught that such ideals are toxic. That being said, I've found that the healthiest way to play a "racist character" here isn't to limit RP with the other players of a different race (which I tried, and failed at lol), but rather to adopt a certain kind of mindset, which is far less offensive. The way I've played it thats been most popular is "Lithmorrans are superior, but have an *obligation* to assist lesser races." This can take many forms! The best I've seen is our current plot to "enrich" the Charali race. Personally it's been great, because Smith can make snide comments about "horse-effers," and "Thirty Days, amirite?" IC situations that have helpfiles to back them up. Being a snide, cynical bastard doesn't *stop* people from RP'ing with you. Sure, it makes it... Unpleasant, and oft-times stressful and things? But it doesn't force them from a room. On the other side of that, it also allows for "Kindly racism," wherein, for example, a Lithmorran character deals with a Hillman because... Oh, you know... Hillmen are just special. They need to be nurtured and cared for because they dont have the benefit of a Lithmorran set of ideals, those poor beasts... It's demeaning, it's insulting - and it leads to some *hilarious* RP down the road.
In the end, my opinion is that this matter lies with the players. Imm's shouldnt be made to support one position or the other (as some folks feel ever-so-strongly about the subject), but the players should reinforce it - maybe not with IC support? But with recommendations, QP awards, and the like. After all - we players come and go, but the Imms have to stay! They're burdened with that, and we're free to come and go as we please, if the going gets rough. But yeah! Always an interesting subject to touch on, thanks for starting the discussion!
Rothgar Astartes, Fyurii Rynnya, Nils 'Smith' Mattias, Edward Darson, Curos Arents.
Thanks for the thoughts, Rothgar. I agree that it's very touchy, which is why one of my suggested options is, 'only claim that the racism in-game is "mild" instead of "major."' I think that would address the problem.
However, if the claim remains, I think staff must treat the subject seriously. I don't know if anyone here has followed the recent stories about publishers withdrawing children's books for including pictures of smiling slaves (in otherwise excellent books). Nobody denies that slaves, sometimes, smiled, and yet the portrayals were so widely considered to minimize systemic racism that the books were withdrawn. I think the game is bumping up against a similar issue.
To my mind, leaving this to the players -is- the problem. It reduces emphatic, widespread racism from an institutional, systemic imbalance of power to a question of individual nastiness. That reduction is ... in questionable taste.
And many games would have no easy means to address this, but this game does. 'Influence' is already coded. All that is required is for staff to review submitted logs, and maybe monitor rumors. And I suspect that virtually nobody would submit logs in any case because, as you say, almost no players are willing to engage with these toxic and horrible ideas. But the fix is as easy as a policy update: if your character witnesses a PC being noticeably anti-racist (ie, anti-theme) in public, post a note to the staff and/or a write a rumor post, and the staff will, acting in place of the NPCs word, reduce that PC's Influence.
However, if the claim remains, I think staff must treat the subject seriously. I don't know if anyone here has followed the recent stories about publishers withdrawing children's books for including pictures of smiling slaves (in otherwise excellent books). Nobody denies that slaves, sometimes, smiled, and yet the portrayals were so widely considered to minimize systemic racism that the books were withdrawn. I think the game is bumping up against a similar issue.
To my mind, leaving this to the players -is- the problem. It reduces emphatic, widespread racism from an institutional, systemic imbalance of power to a question of individual nastiness. That reduction is ... in questionable taste.
And many games would have no easy means to address this, but this game does. 'Influence' is already coded. All that is required is for staff to review submitted logs, and maybe monitor rumors. And I suspect that virtually nobody would submit logs in any case because, as you say, almost no players are willing to engage with these toxic and horrible ideas. But the fix is as easy as a policy update: if your character witnesses a PC being noticeably anti-racist (ie, anti-theme) in public, post a note to the staff and/or a write a rumor post, and the staff will, acting in place of the NPCs word, reduce that PC's Influence.
The main problem I see here is that all of this is very highly subjective. If I am looking on at someone, I can't hear their thoughts (unless I am a mage) so I don't know what is going on there. What if someone is painfully polite and won't lower themselves to causing a scene while they quietly curse the shit out of that hillman or what have you. There are degrees of nuance that can be had that you just don't know about so how can you honestly and fairly judge who is doing it properly? You want staff to do that? That is one way, but staff can't see thoughts or anything unless they are in the room, they might have differing opinions and if they start judging if a character is 'racist' enough it will breed anger and resentment. I think staff here does a good job keeping themselves out except for policy issues because it avoids a lot of issues that other games have. This is the first staff in a long time that I by and large trust. This is in a large part because they keep themselves out of a lot of issues and thus when they do step in it tends to be more impactful and for more of a reason and it removes a lot of the potential accusations of favoritism. I am sure that it still happens, but this policy helps make it less of an issue.
I mean, I think there are a lot of people who are blatantly acting heretical at times, but staff doesn't come in and slap them for it even if the Cardinal is an NPC. And I think -that- is more detrimental than racism in the game. The Order, Knights and church are key and central to the theme of the game and them being made to look stupid or not enforcing their rules is detrimental to the theme, but I am not seeing a big call for staff to step in and start enforcing that more. They leave it to the IC world to police as is policy, a policy that is there for a good reason.
I mean, I think there are a lot of people who are blatantly acting heretical at times, but staff doesn't come in and slap them for it even if the Cardinal is an NPC. And I think -that- is more detrimental than racism in the game. The Order, Knights and church are key and central to the theme of the game and them being made to look stupid or not enforcing their rules is detrimental to the theme, but I am not seeing a big call for staff to step in and start enforcing that more. They leave it to the IC world to police as is policy, a policy that is there for a good reason.
I think the problem here, Aftali, is you may be taking the helpfiles far more literally than they are meant. Helpfiles are intended to reflect the way the world, PCs and NPCS and vNPCs all, should generally be thinking, feeling, and behaving - setting a tone for the world as we would like to see it generally conceived of. But nobody wants to force PCs to abide by the world portrayed in the helpfiles, because then we'd also have things like extremely strict quotas on the number of heretics the gameworld could have (for example). So the helpfiles portray the world of TI as it is imagined overall, and players are asked to remember that their characters are living in a world where these things should be true. Not to mention, players always want to be more progressive than the helpfiles! If they said TI had mild racism and sometimes people disapproved of Charali/Hillman, for example, we'd have NO racial conflict in the theme at all.
We've had multiple OOC meeting discussions about this and I think it's already appeared on the board once. My question is a simple one: why is this such a big deal that you feel like the staff should directly intervene to force the issue? I get that it's theme and stuff, but there is A LOT of pervasive racism in the game; I exploited this fact to have 95% of the Daravi refugees from Darkest Day burned at the stake.
Charali and Hillmen can never be gentry even if they become of higher class like knights, and the one knight that I know of that we have that is Hillmen is directly apprenticed to one of the most dedicated characters to the Order in this game, bar none. The one Daravi priest was inducted by a man that was branded for heresy and then executed for murder and then promoted to priesthood by a woman who was branded for heresy. Lithmorran peasants drink from the golden Chalice while Tubori or Vavardi nobility drink from the silver. Everybody assumes you're a drunk or Brotherhood if you're Tubori, everybody assumes you're a Knight if you're Farin, everybody assumes you're a cold hearted brutally practical person if you're Vandagan, and everybody assumes you're a deviant if you're Vavardi. These stereotypes are so ingrained in the system that we have OOC channel conversations about them.
Point blank: Just because the racism that is in this game doesn't meet your definition of pervasive doesn't mean that the staff should run interference on RP, and you seriously just need to stop saying that you don't have a problem with how others play their PCs and that you're not trying to tell people how to run their characters when you're basically arguing that the authority figures on this game should directly intervene to force the pervasive racism issue from what I'm understanding here.
In my mind, you are blatantly trying to force people to play their characters the way you want them to be played in regards to the racism theme while denying that you're doing it, and it's really quite annoying.
Charali and Hillmen can never be gentry even if they become of higher class like knights, and the one knight that I know of that we have that is Hillmen is directly apprenticed to one of the most dedicated characters to the Order in this game, bar none. The one Daravi priest was inducted by a man that was branded for heresy and then executed for murder and then promoted to priesthood by a woman who was branded for heresy. Lithmorran peasants drink from the golden Chalice while Tubori or Vavardi nobility drink from the silver. Everybody assumes you're a drunk or Brotherhood if you're Tubori, everybody assumes you're a Knight if you're Farin, everybody assumes you're a cold hearted brutally practical person if you're Vandagan, and everybody assumes you're a deviant if you're Vavardi. These stereotypes are so ingrained in the system that we have OOC channel conversations about them.
Point blank: Just because the racism that is in this game doesn't meet your definition of pervasive doesn't mean that the staff should run interference on RP, and you seriously just need to stop saying that you don't have a problem with how others play their PCs and that you're not trying to tell people how to run their characters when you're basically arguing that the authority figures on this game should directly intervene to force the pervasive racism issue from what I'm understanding here.
In my mind, you are blatantly trying to force people to play their characters the way you want them to be played in regards to the racism theme while denying that you're doing it, and it's really quite annoying.
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