On putting on armors

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Puciek
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Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:17 pm

"About armor, as most people travel without them, just stick complete plate on their horse in a box, and then combat is due they just put it on in matter of seconds. While I am no expert on weapons and armor from that era, I had some experience with wearing those armors and putting them even with help is problematic and can take quite some time (depending how much stuff you need to put on), and often it is impossible to do on your own and it just doesn't make sense to me for people to quickly jump into them like they do now because it allows them to negate the downside to wearing armor without losing the benefits. Is there something we can do to stop that? Or maybe I am just bonkers about it and this is fine, then please let me know."


The issue with that is that i firmly believe that heavy armors should require careful planning to be used, not be something you default to with each call to action (especially when there is no time to prepare). I perfectly understand that we do not want people to walk all the time in armors "just in case" (because that would be uncomfortable as hell) but I think that the way it is atm where people do "10 second plating" and rush to action is a bit broken in the other direction. I also do not think that we need a coding fix for this, instead maybe a policy to not put on heavier armors if the situation is fast paced?
Like if you are running/charging across town because someone cried for help, that obviously is a spot where you will fight in what you wear. But if you are in safe place (not middle of the road outside of tavern) preparing for an assault then it is more than fine to just quickly "plate up" because there is no icly sense of rush.

It may also be a case where we should look into adjusting the weight of plates. In medieval times a complete plate armor would wear about 20 kg (more if made of poor quality steel), which for anyone with reasonable cond (I would say 60+) should not make much of an issue to wear, especially since it is nicely spread about your whole body, not just hanging like a backpack. Maybe average of str + con could be used to modify mv impact from heavy armors, so the strong and well built men (85+ in both) would barely lose any extra mv due to the heavy armor they carry? This would make it viable on-duty gear, without the need of a horse or inability to, well, do even basic patrols.
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Voxumo
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Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:22 pm

Here's the thing. I've managed to get pretty good at putting on armor as I travel someplace. What's to stop people from abusing the fact that as they are travelling, people likely won't see them put armor on, and would be none the wiser if they showed up in armor. I may just be an asshole but if I can find a loophole or way around something, I'm going to use it. And I imagine there are alot of people like me who will do so as well...
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Puciek
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Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:28 pm

Voxumo wrote:Here's the thing. I've managed to get pretty good at putting on armor as I travel someplace. What's to stop people from abusing the fact that as they are travelling, people likely won't see them put armor on, and would be none the wiser if they showed up in armor. I may just be an asshole but if I can find a loophole or way around something, I'm going to use it. And I imagine there are alot of people like me who will do so as well...
If we start bending the game toward the couple people who abuse the system then this mud will not last long as vast majority of this mud functions on trust. There is also something there that if you treat people as criminals then they will become criminals.
Blake Evernight tells you, "You, Sir, won my heart today. Are you single?"

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Voxumo
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Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:47 pm

Puciek wrote:
Voxumo wrote:Here's the thing. I've managed to get pretty good at putting on armor as I travel someplace. What's to stop people from abusing the fact that as they are travelling, people likely won't see them put armor on, and would be none the wiser if they showed up in armor. I may just be an asshole but if I can find a loophole or way around something, I'm going to use it. And I imagine there are alot of people like me who will do so as well...
If we start bending the game toward the couple people who abuse the system then this mud will not last long as vast majority of this mud functions on trust. There is also something there that if you treat people as criminals then they will become criminals.
So it's better to bend the game towards the couple of people who have an issue with armors and eating to restore MV? This game functioned for how long with people doing what you speak against? I'm not asking anything to be done, I'm just pointing out a major flaw. This does nothing to solve the issue, for there will be people who manage to find ways around it. So many of the supposed 'Solutions' added to the game as of late do nothing to actually solve the issue they were meant to fix. Example being the addition of wounds. It was suppose to make wounds have a bigger impact and encourage people to actually rp about them... it gives them a bigger impact sure, but it really does nothing to encourage people to rp about them, for they will still ignore the wounds exist as they heal, as people have generally always done on this game. The same applies to this. People will find a way around this.

However I acknowledge the fact that a modifier on how badly wearing armor affects your mv drain may be a better idea. Afterall if people are more easily able to wear said armor, they may not have to put it on mid-travel.
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Puciek
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Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:59 pm

Voxumo wrote:
Puciek wrote:
Voxumo wrote:Here's the thing. I've managed to get pretty good at putting on armor as I travel someplace. What's to stop people from abusing the fact that as they are travelling, people likely won't see them put armor on, and would be none the wiser if they showed up in armor. I may just be an asshole but if I can find a loophole or way around something, I'm going to use it. And I imagine there are alot of people like me who will do so as well...
If we start bending the game toward the couple people who abuse the system then this mud will not last long as vast majority of this mud functions on trust. There is also something there that if you treat people as criminals then they will become criminals.
So it's better to bend the game towards the couple of people who have an issue with armors and eating to restore MV? This game functioned for how long with people doing what you speak against? I'm not asking anything to be done, I'm just pointing out a major flaw. This does nothing to solve the issue, for there will be people who manage to find ways around it. So many of the supposed 'Solutions' added to the game as of late do nothing to actually solve the issue they were meant to fix. Example being the addition of wounds. It was suppose to make wounds have a bigger impact and encourage people to actually rp about them... it gives them a bigger impact sure, but it really does nothing to encourage people to rp about them, for they will still ignore the wounds exist as they heal, as people have generally always done on this game. The same applies to this. People will find a way around this.

However I acknowledge the fact that a modifier on how badly wearing armor affects your mv drain may be a better idea. Afterall if people are more easily able to wear said armor, they may not have to put it on mid-travel.
You seem to forget that not everyone on TI is a power gamer who cares only about the best possible output for their PC, as luckily a lot of population cares way more about quality rp than their personal gain. Many who did the eating/armoring did so because "this is how it always was done" but when I hinted oocly that eating in middle of tense scene is just bad they did admit it and stopped. Most likely because they've never thought about this before, it was simply "the norm" that everyone was doing, despite that it made absolutely no sense icly.

So please, do not measure the whole population by your own stick. Just because you ignore the wounds, doesn't mean that everyone else does, as there is a lot of fantastic rp coming from the new, long lasting, wounds (despite that they initially were riddled by quite a lot of annoying bugs) and same way I hope that they will also embrace the new policy about armors and foods which apparently went live as I was writing OP.
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Voxumo
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Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:15 pm

You assume as if I'm basing my views on a single experience. I've been playing this game for nearly 3 years now. In that time I'd like to think I've gotten a pretty good idea of the game and the people within. And I value quality rp, but I also value being able to just enjoy a game instead of having to constantly make sure I'm not breaking some idiotic policy that is just in place because a select group wanted more realism in a bloody game.
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Zeita
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Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:02 pm

Why? Because donning armor and munching down cakes breaks immersion and borders on twinking in many circumstances and indeed seems to have been added to the helpfile recently. Clearly there have been instances lately where it has been abused.

I'd much rather see things changed so that such behaviour isn't required. To that end, allow MVs to regenerate to 60-75% of max naturally. Make food, once eaten, go into an energy pool that dripfeeds into your mvs like the skill pool does into your abilities.
It was suppose to make wounds have a bigger impact and encourage people to actually rp about them... it gives them a bigger impact sure, but it really does nothing to encourage people to rp about them, for they will still ignore the wounds exist as they heal, as people have generally always done on this game.
This is also twinking. If you see anyone doing this, they're breaking the policy rules of the game.

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BattleJenkins
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Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:07 am

I would just like to say that I am also a fan of the 'energy pool' idea, and of making things drain less MV in general so that micromanaging your MV becomes less crucial.

I'm not sure what the mechanical purpose of MV as it exists right now is - it doesn't put a meaningful limiter on character activity because a character can just scarf down a bunch of food to fill it back up instantly while nobody's looking. If it is meant to put a character who has just done something exhausting at a temporary disadvantage, or if it is meant to keep a character from doing too much at once in a short period, the way food replenishes MV instantly now completely negates the effectiveness of it at all. As it exists now, all MV does is provide a minor inconvenience, a slight drain on character resources, and give reasons for people to engage in immersion-breaking behavior like scarfing down food between fights or waiting until a dangerous situation to instantly don all their armor.

A question I think is worth asking: What does MV as it exists now provide? If we take it out completely, what will we lose? Will we lose anything good? The good things that we would lose if we ditched MV altogether are worth preserving, so let's see what we can do redesign how it works to focus on those good things.

I believe that making MV replenish on its own as if you were resting (as long as you haven't performed any MV-draining activity in the past, say, minute or so), and making it replenish faster if your character has eaten recently (the 'energy pool' idea is good for this), with no way to replenish it instantly would reduce if not eliminate the immersion-breaking behavior. I do, however, think that this should be coupled with fewer drains on MV and perhaps less harsh penalties for low MV than exist currently, since being caught in a situation without full MV would become more likely - I also think that resting, and especially sleeping, should restore your MV even faster.

If these changes were made, fatigue would actually feel like a meaningful measurement of your character's endurance, and choices about where to spend it will be logical from an IC perspective. If your character crafts armor at the forge all day, and then goes down to the fighting auditorium to practice, by the time they get home they should be dead tired - not unholstering two large cheese pizzas, scarfing them both down in 30 seconds, and instantly becoming ready to kick demon butt.

EDIT: Another suggestion - the armor situation might be helped by reducing the MV consumption rate of moving with armor, but adding an MV cost to putting it on, one at least large enough to offset the advantage of waiting until a dangerous situation pops up to don it all at once. This would only help, however, if the changes I suggested above were implemented, and the MV cost couldn't just be offset with a quick snack.

EDIT 2: A point that Takta brought up in the OOC chat is that, during combat-heavy storyteller events, players don't really have an alternative to restoring their MV between fights other than scarfing down food. A storyteller command to simply restore everyone's MV if multiple fights are taking place would be helpful.

EDIT 3: I also want to suggest, right off the bat, that we don't add in a system of characters getting hungry or suffering penalties for not eating. Systems like that generally turn out very un-fun.

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Voxumo
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Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:36 am

Firstly, what mv affects the most is combat and movement. Have you tried sprinting? It massively drains mv, thus preventing long chases. In combat it limits how long a fight can last. Afterall no one wants infinite fights. Those are it's two major things. But it also limits things like crafting and evoking spells. It's basically a way to limit how much a character can do.

While on topic, I can't say I've ever seen someone scarf food down while crafting, or casting spells. It seems to only occur in combat situations.

Secondly I'd like to point out that time is not the same in TI as in the real world. If each day was really 24 hours real time, there would be alot more time for people to restore mv aside from scarfing food, like eating three meals a day. We just don't get that time in TI when a single day only lasts for 6 hours. Have you seen some of the stories? They can easily last upwards of 6 hours+, yet in that time you only accomplish things that would only take maybe 4 hours in real life.

Thirdly, you talk about immersion-breaking behavior, would a ST restoring mv partway through battles not count as immersion breaking? What makes it any different than someone scarfing food down? Nothing! There is no difference. This is a freakin game, not a second chance at life or a way to escape your current life. It't just a way to have fun. Why do you think so many actual console games out there give people an option to heal between battles? Because they know people don't want to wait around for the health to restore. They don't want to experience real life in a game meant to be fun. Yes, realism is nice, but it shouldn't be such a bloody mandatory thing. If you want realism, hop off TI. There's your realism. Is it realistic that a child just turned 16 would be offered a very powerful position? No, it's not realistic in the slightest. But it happened because it was a game, and we are just meant to have fun, instead of nitpicking every god dang thing that breaks realism.

And I'm sorry that I'm ranting, but this has been pissing me off for the longest god dang time. I'm sick tired of people pissing and moaning about realism, in a bloody game.
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Kinaed
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Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:35 am

Galen wrote:I'm not sure what the mechanical purpose of MV as it exists right now is - ... ... ... A question I think is worth asking: What does MV as it exists now provide? If we take it out completely, what will we lose? Will we lose anything good? The good things that we would lose if we ditched MV altogether are worth preserving, so let's see what we can do redesign how it works to focus on those good things.
The role of movement is part of the sink economy of TI. Players don't *need* to buy food, but it provides them with convenience and is a game mechanic designed to make money valuable so that wealthy people have something that non-wealthy people want. This is not the only money sink in the game, but it's one of the most utilized. It's also extremely important to a system where money means anything. On Old TI, people earned silver just for RPing. Then you could put your money in the bank and earn interest - and there was relatively little worth buying. As a result, the Crown Princess couldn't really pay people to do things because people didn't want or need money.

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