Petty crimes

[Gavin]

Echoing what Lei said.

The fact that the BH harbors mages almost consistently sets a pattern. So does (and hate to put the blame on Naer here) poking the wrong bear. When he was Tenebrae, the BH got away with quite a bit, and his anti-mage tendencies were well-known and, among certain echelons, trusted.

The problem is when he mailed an eyeball of one of Gavin's friends to Gavin.

I guess what Lei and I were getting at is this: if you want to be punished for petty crimes, then commit petty crimes, and let big plots simmer (and be more secretive about them). In my mind, the most successful BH "mission" would involve success and non-detection. Maybe, something like an Ocean's 11-style heist. If you wanted to rob the Merchants' Guild, I know that while some people would care, not everyone would -- not to the extent of harboring mages or committing wanton murder. That really ties our hands.

[Leech]

I tried Ocean's Eleven, man. All my contacts went on the fritz or on the pyre. Eyeball chopping was the next best thing.

[Lei]

So when I think of having a character do petty crimes, and get caught for stealing, I think - well, that'll be the end, when they get caught north side for something petty, because everyone OOCly knows it's a thief guild skill, so I'll be auto-Brotherhooded and put as a mage sympathizer, even though realistically ANYONE can pick someone else's pocket, especially badly, and what are the odds that an inept street operator knows the Tenebrae themselves?

Ew. I hate when we lose our suspension of disbelief. We shouldn't be doing that. 2+2 might make 4 in the OOC realm, but yeah-- there's a zillion NPCs to account for in our RP. I try very hard to keep them in mind with mine and sway my guild in that direction as well (I don't always remember, but I sure hope that's an exception for me, rather than the rule).

We shouldn't be using that kind of math.

Just a couple weeks ago Lei got in a HUGE argument with some PCs over this kind of issue. They recognized a hat that some covert person was wearing while causing a ruckus, and -immediately- named their friend the owner as the culprit. "Hey, it -has- to be this guy! That was definitely HIS hat!" No, no, no. There are THRONGS of people in Lithmore. You know, and I know, that yeah, of course it's that guy, but what about the other THOUSANDS of NPC's with hats? There's just ZERO chance that five, ten, or fifty other people in the Capitol of Lithmore might have a similar hat, or even the exact SAME one?

I think it's really poor form not to account for that kind of stuff in RP, especially when we know it's going to leave the fate of someone's character hanging in the balance.

Lei threw a fit to try and make her point (which was my point, really): "NO. It doesn't -have- to be that guy. It -might- be that guy. MIGHT be." Small difference, maybe -- but then again, maybe it isn't!

Anyway. That was a nice little anecdote. I forget where I was going with it; something about math. It's 4am and I'm going to bed.


***Whoops! The post I was replying to with this one got deleted, ...but screw it. I'm leaving this one up.

[Atholos]

I agree with Lei on this, there is a massive amount of people in Lithmore. If someone stole a couple coins that doesn't necessarily mean they are BH ICly because for all you know he could just be some poor guy on the street looking for a little coin and the Reeves wouldn't have the time or resources to execute every single pickpocket. They have other things to do then lobbing off the heads of people who stole a couple coins just because that's really firm evidence OOC. ICly and thematically there would be so many pickpockets why bother trying to hunt them down and arrest them? All they did is take some coins. No matter how much that noble is yelling in your face that a pickpocket stole their most favorite bracelet or whatever the Reeves should be lying between their teeth saying, "Yes yes, of course we'll find that single pickpocket." Now if they stumble upon his by all means arrest him for pick-pocketing and give him the punishment he needs and deserves.

[Applesauce]

While Steal is a guildskill, anyone at all can get it up to rank 36. So not only is it kinda twinky to assume all thieves are Brotherhood members, it's also technically incorrect.

Since 36 is a very high-risk rank for steal, you could say the easier they got caught, the better the chance they're NOT in the guild ;)

[Leech]

Is anybody assuming that anybody with skill in steal is a Brohood member and chopping off their head/burning them because they picked somebody's pocket, once?

[wimple]

That was my post that I deleted because I've been posting early in the morning, after waking up, and missing things out (i.e. not noticing that Temi's point had been addressed because it had). I've had or seen trumped up charges against South Side characters because they were in South Side therefore must be Brohood. If the policy is that Brohood = Mage, then any petty theft could mean Petty Thief = Brohood = MAGE.

If the issue is mages are in the higher ranks of the Brohood, it's a huge NPC leap that any Brohood member has to be handed over to the Church. A street level petty-theft person isn't going to know the Tenebrae. The organization is HUGE. Thematically, most of the South Side should be connected to the Brotherhood somehow. Low-level petty thieves aren't going to know anyone up the ladder, let alone the personal policies of the leadership (i.e. that they are or aren't a mage). So for the Order to have to take every Brohood member because Brohood have a history of mage crossover, just seems extreme to me. It's disregarding the NPC world. So saying that the Brohood needs to lose its mages so everyone arrested doesn't need to be turned over to the Church seems disconnected to me. If they're actually mages or whatever and that comes out, cool. But if it's simply because they're doing petty theft, then that's not cool.

What does the Brohood need to realistically do to lose the image? Apparently, Naer was not mage-friendly. As a non-person involved, I had no idea. There is high turnover with the Church and Reeves, so aside from some long-standing characters, is that well known? The only way I know of them with a mage-friendly rep is from Remi and the next couple of Tenebrae being mages - but that was ICly YEARS ago.

[Lei]

...it's a huge NPC leap that any Brohood member has to be handed over to the Church.

Yes. That would be ridiculous. That is NOT reeve policy. We don't like handing our prisoners over to the Order. We aren't volunteering them!

Is that an Order policy? I have no idea, but I would be surprised if it was. If it is, that's definitely a problem we should fix.

The thing with all the vNPC thieves, is that really, we don't deal with them. We deal with the PC thieves. When all of the PC thieves who come through for processing are mixed up with magery, it really doesn't matter where the vNPCs stand: the ones that we play with are getting pyred. We still have to process prisoners thematically.

Can anyone tell me the last time a Brotherhood PC was processed through Ahalin Tower for criminal charges resulting in their execution without Order involvement? I can't think of a single example, but I am forgetful.

[Leech]

Naer was beheaded, not burnt, and I don't think the Order was involved much in that - though admittedly I didn't have the best point of view of those going-ons.

[Lei]

Alright. That's a tenebrae; executing a tenebrae follows game precedent. How about a low-level thief?