Log of OOC Meeting - 2020/03/14

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Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:51 am

Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:25 pm

Temi wonders, "Now, our agenda for today: 1) Staff Updates, 2) Player Heartbeat, 3) Player
Topics. Before we get going, does anyone have any topics they want to put on the agenda for that
last section?"

Sparkles claims, "I have a topic."

Temi asks, "Got Sparkles. Anyone else?"

Emsa states, "Yep, I've got something short."

ToffeeApples says, "Not me"

Tasker considers plugging a mage guild again

Temi says, "And Emsa."

Temi says, "If anyone else decides they want to discuss something, let us know and we'll add it onto
the list."

Lucretia says, "Can you keep me in the last slot for topics. If there's time, I got something non

Temi nods at Lucretia.

Temi declaims, "Alright then. Staff updates!"

Niamh peers at Temi.

Temi trails off, "For me, I've been working on plot stuffs, and I've switched over the header plot
for civil war focused to Vandagan focused. I also updated the rumor policy helpfile with what we
previously discussed about sources, designed a way to describe the effects of projects on city
report and..."

Temi ponders.

Temi claims, "Oh, yeah, the announcement about region requirements for noble applications."

Temi says, "Other than that, just helping keep things going."

Temi wonders, "Niamh?"

Niamh states, "This week I finished the last leg of real estate processing until the next eviction
cycle (boo). The auction house has been restocked and the next couple rounds are prepared in
advance, so it shouldn't get to the point it's nearly empty for a good while. Handled some phome
building, recommends, and cleared our typos board. Handled the back-end updates for the website and
updated the skins and plugins - if you run into any issues with your blog skins let me know, but try
to disable/reenable the skin as a first course of action. Ran through the changes board a couple
times. Annnd finished a draft for a history index helpfile that documents past Seneschals. "

Niamh exclaims, "Done!"

Temi questions, "Awesome, thanks! And Erika?"

Kuzco asks, "What's the helpfile, Niamh?"

Erika states, "I've been completely swamped with work IRL, drudging my way through everything and
getting a bunch of improvements ready for the web client thanks to the suggestions from a few chats
ago. Work's going to be less of a thing from now on so look forward to that! And that aside, just
the usual helping around to keep things going smooth."

Temi says, "The seneschals one? I think it's still a draft."

Niamh nods.

Kuzco says, "Oh right. Lol."

Niamh says, "Needs a look from Kin and approval first."

ToffeeApples cheers Erika, "I'm using it now"

Niamh cheers at Erika.

Deedee states, "Might be worth noting there's been an addition to help policy tooling, speaking of
help files"

Temi nods at Deedee.

Temi states, "Clarifying the ingredients requirements on things."

Temi states, "Deedee wanted that specifically for medicine, but I know it's something people have
always found uncertain in regards to food and that sort of stuff as well"

Sparkles muses, "That was going to be my topic, should I wait?"

Temi states, "Yeah, we'll discuss that when it comes to your turn then."

Sparkles nods.

Temi asks, "Excellent. Okay then! Player heartbeat! How's RP been this week?"

Deedee states, "Slowed down a bit, but I've had some good scenes"

Tasker claims, "I'm trying my heckin' darndest to get back into the swing of things lately."

Pookstall pontificates, "As always, time's a bit rough, but I managed to make it to the tail end of
the party, so that's a good start!"

Lucretia claims, "Got more things to feel good about, than complain about."

Violet claims, "Good good, the Magebane party was lovely and there's lots of interesting drama."

Percivale claims, "It's been a pretty good start for me, I'd say"

Emsa says, "I feel like things have been interesting for the most part, even if it's a bit stressful
at times! Lots of fun stuff."

Temi pontificates, "For those not aware, our cake gifty today honors the Magebane party. I've heard
good things!"

Wight claims, "Good all considered as well. Hoping to have more time going forward but we'll see."

Sparkles claims, "The party was fun, I was happy to see people pop by."

Temi muses, "Main complaint I hear then is time, or are people having other issues at this point?"

Deedee states, "Time is the enemy."

Temi nods in agreement with Deedee.

Temi claims, "But outlawing it would probably cause some other problems."

Jaquelette pontificates, "I've only just started this morning, but I'm starting to get the swing of

Kuzco declares, "Welcome!"

Temi grins at Jaquelette.

Wight exclaims, "Welcome! "

Deedee says to Niamh, "Interesting books you got there."

Niamh exclaims to Jaquelette, "OoOOoo> Welcome!"

Niamh grins at Deedee.

Temi exclaims, "Yes, indeed, welcome! And glad to hear it's been a nice start!"

Violet says OOCly, "Welcome! It was fun to RP with you earlier, Jaquelette <3"

Violet can't use commands correctly today.

Kuzco says, "And yes it's been good. Kinda glad someone else took over Seneschal tho', I was getting
worn down."

Temi says, "We were just going over player heartbeat now"

Jaquelette pontificates, "Oh! Very much the same here!"

Temi nods at Kuzco.

Satoshi states, "Sweet, hopefully everyone had a good week :)"

Temi claims to Kuzco, "That's part of the thoughts behind it rotating. Just keeping at it forever
will burn people out, and they may be left just holding onto the position without the doing

Temi states, "Seems pretty good, and I'm hearing good thoughts about the magebane party"

Civetta claims, "Feeling a little burnout over here things in game being unstable and generally

ToffeeApples says, "I had a couple scenes, so that was nice"

Temi questions, "Anything bothering anyone that staff ought to know about?"

Temi asks of Civetta, "What level of instability? The political stuff, or something related to your

Lucretia claims, "Approval, as always."

Temi nods at Lucretia.

Civetta claims, "All of the above hitting all at once"

Temi wonders to Lucretia, "You've posted your thoughts on that for staff review, right?"

Lucretia nods.

Temi nods at Civetta.

Lucretia states, "And I promise Approval is not my topic. That thing is a topic at least 30 times
each year."

Temi asks of Civetta, "Is there something more we should be taking into account and balancing
better, or it just happened to be bad luck with both hitting together?"

Sparkles states, "Wondering how some awkward OOC stuff will effect RP as it's leaving some things in
the lurch ICly."

Temi nods at Sparkles.

Satoshi says, "Mostly just my low play-time making being a good and active player harder and harder
but staff can't save me from capitalism"

Deedee states, "I don't envy those caught up in that."

Temi says, "If it's the stuff I'm thinking of, we're hoping to sort out some of it with Kin, maybe

ToffeeApples queries, "Is it plot related?"

Temi says, "No, not related to the plot"

Deedee states, "A player got caught up in something and needed to have a sandwich, which makes
things a little harder to settle"

Temi nods at Deedee.

Temi states, "Okay then. Anything else anybody wants to put in before we move on? And yeah, staff
can't solve capitalism."

Erika says, "Maybe if we make some money printing machines."

Temi grins at Erika.

Viper wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggles yeah.

Lucretia states, "I'd definitely have to burn you for that sorcery, Erika."

Lucretia states, "I'd need two pyres for that heresy."

Temi wonders, "Alright then, moving on! Let's start player topics - Sparkles?"

Sparkles says, "So, as noted, there was an update to tooling policy on the use of ingredients and
... I'd like to discuss that a bit. The first bit is a request that when policy helpfiles are
updated, that's added to the splash screen, as I had no idea until another player told me which ...
likely would have changed RP if I'd been aware."

Temi wonders to Sparkles, "Want to repeat that for Kin?"

Kinaed says OOCly, "Sorry, I forgot to wake up an hour earlier this morning."

Sparkles says, "So, as noted, there was an update to tooling policy on the use of ingredients and
... I'd like to discuss that a bit. The first bit is a request that when policy helpfiles are
updated, that's added to the splash screen, as I had no idea until another player told me which ...
likely would have changed RP if I'd been aware."

Viper tickles Kinaed.

Wight grins at Kinaed and waves

Lucretia waves to Kinaed.

Niamh waves to Kinaed.

Deedee exclaims to Kinaed, "Morning!"

Kinaed waves cheerfully (and sleepily) at everyone.

Violet hugs Kinaed.

Kinaed hugs, tickles, waves, and whatevers back to all.

Temi states, "Yeah, we likely should have added that update to the news"

Satoshi claims, "Oh yeah, I was TOLD about the policy change and I sorta disagree with adding that
change in"

Satoshi claims, "I feel like a new item should have been added instead"

ToffeeApples claims, "I remembered I have a beef I want to raise too if we have time"

Kinaed says, "Apologies for forgetting the splash screen update. "

Temi says, "It was more of a clarification that already encompasses how we look at things like

Kinaed nods at Temi.

Temi states, "Rather than looked at as a completely new policy"

Deedee claims, "It has lead to some RP, being unknown. And I originally wanted it to be new items or
recipes, but this was a compromise of sorts"

Temi states, "It's just that recent IC actions has stressed and proved some uncertainties around the
edges of the policies"

Satoshi trails off, "The specific circumstance that was outlined to me was that it affected the no
alcohol thing in the Physicians... that has definitely caused a lot of adverse RP for many people"

Temi nods at Satoshi.

Sparkles says, "'m going to carefully note that I have some concern with this. When people search
recipes, they will see what ingredients are used. They thus can one imagined arguably deduce that's
what's used to make something. I think creating scenarios where that has to be explained away using
OOC info like helpfiles is tricky at best. If something is fundamentally important to being
different, I'd argue an update or a new craft is a better idea."

Violet states, "It would have preferred just having provided more flexibility in the original
recipe. i.e. use grain alcohol or a glycerin we can make from lard."

Kinaed states, "I am in strong objection to staff creating or modifying crafts to suit a single
player's RP."

Eiphraem claims, "As someone who's a little bit newer, I admit I'm a little confused on the topic."

Kinaed states, "So, we decided to be moderately flexible (note: we were not extremely flexible)."

Lucretia says, "I think that also brings up the issue on whether we know how to make those things
ICly or not. We're not really in a position of technological revolution."

Wimpled says, "The new policy removes conflict (i.e. can get around controversial ingredients) and
potentially makes certain coded medicines that are region specific (i.e. Hillman ones) less
important. "

Satoshi asks, "Would it be off the table to use a milestone to create such an item?"

Sparkles says, "But I think using an ingredient and then basically RPing you aren't using it is IMHO
a tad awkward."

Satoshi says, "I feel like--yeah, just handwaving it means several people left the guild for,
effectively, no reason"

Kinaed states to Satoshi, "We frequently reject milestone requests to make new craft recipes, yes."

Temi claims, "We specifically did not make a new item that says 'You're allowed to not use alcohol
in any recipe that requires alcohol', but rather that whether it has alcohol or not is based on the
coded template of the object, rather than the recipe used to make it"

Kinaed says to Satoshi, "I don't think staff handwaved it, and having a policy that's a bit lenient
with regards to tooling is not the same as being responsible or supportive for however the RP played
out on the ground."

Satoshi states, "Well I've been told we can ADD small things to recipes (like cooking) such as...
mashed potatoes to a meat dish. But not that we can TAKE stuff away"

Deedee states, "I do not think it invalidates anyone's RP by the way- ICly they might simply not
know of the alternatives"

Satoshi says, "If I make a charcoal sketch, I can't decide it's actually graphite, it's a charcoal
sketch. But I could probably add some chalk to it as highlights."

Kuzco states, "I doubt I can craft Solace while RP'ing it as being mugwort-less."

Sparkles questions, "How does anyone who watches someone use that recipe RP that?"

Wimpled claims, "You're forcing an IC narrative on a player due to an OOC reason, then, DeeDee"

Jaquelette asks, "Is it simply impossible to make a 'virgin' version of an alcoholic drink

Sparkles says, "The echoes of the craft will still mention the ingredient supposedly not being

Temi says to Jaquelette, "The issue is specifically around medical remedies, some of which use
alcohol as an ingredient."

Satoshi claims, "You could tool fruit juice, and most things using the brew skill are barely
alcoholic, but yeah the crafting echoes mention stuff"

Percivale claims, "I'm of the opinion that fluff should trump mechanics when it needs to do so, and
players should be creative to fit situations instead of the staff trying to fit the game to every
player possibility (say, if I wanted to wrap vines around an axe), but I must admit that this
particular situation seems a bit more complicated than "creativity.""

Kinaed says, "I'd also say that, in some cases, there'd be no alternatives. You can't just
reformulate medicine at the drop of a hat and have it be effective."

Sparkles says, "But that's what's being done and argued ICly."

Satoshi says, "And... THAT is sorta the crux too. Changing the recipe should affect how effective
the medicine in"

Deedee states, "That was my original idea too"

Jaquelette claims, "Oh so we're talking about alcohol in the abstraction of alchemical aqua vitae
instead of like, pina coladas"

Temi nods at Jaquelette.

Lucretia wonders, "Are we saying simply not making the medicine and letting people die is not an

Kuzco claims to Jaquelette, "Lol"

Niamh says, "Making medicines codedly useless probably wouldn't be good in a game where diseases are

Temi exclaims to Lucretia, "That's always an option!"

Lucretia nods at Niamh.

Kinaed nods at Niamh.

Satoshi snickers

Lucretia says, "That's what I thought. From what I understand, this is a perfect opportunity to have
a lot of great RP."

Temi says, "But you're certainly welcome to just give them a useless tea."

Niamh nods.

Kinaed states, "As it was, as staff, we rejected changing the recipes and rejected adding new ones
that did the same thing. We altered the tooling policy to be mildly lenient."

Niamh says, "Definitely free to avoid alcohol by giving them a drink that doesn't treat what they
have instead, just comes with the IC pushback."

Satoshi declares, "Well staff seems pretty set on this so I don't think it's productive to keep
talking on it. Thank you for listening though!"

Deedee nods.

Wight wonders, "Maybe adding a note to the policy mentioning that you should check with staff?"

Kinaed states, "With regards to how any player expressed this ICly, I think it was fairly clear that
the staff were non-supportive of coded changes to the craft system."

Sparkles says, "That's not what's come across to me, but maybe that's my perception."

Wimpled muses, "I'm confused. Kin, you just said sometimes there aren't alternatives, but this
change expressly makes an alternative?"

Eiphraem claims, "I feel awkward between function and intent there, then."

Temi claims, "Sometimes there aren't, sometimes there are."

Sparkles questions, "What determines that?"

Kinaed states to Wight, "Honestly, the players in question did check with staff. It just seems that
a 'you can do X, but we won't do Y' seems to have been interpreted as 'everything's a-okay with this
and the staff fully support it' by all parties, leading to this conversation."

Temi states, "We decided not to change the remedies which included alcohol in their soft affects and
tastes, for example."

Kinaed nods at Temi.

Satoshi queries, "To be perfectly clear, then, staff supports tooling alcohol-containing medicine as
not having it, and RPing that it is alcohol-free per the new tooling policy?"

Deedee says, "Certain ones"

Satoshi questions, "Even when it says that? Or do those specific circumstances (effect and taste
mention alcohol) invalidate that?"

Sparkles questions, "How does anyone know what certain ones those are?"

Niamh says, "Oh god now I'm confused"

Deedee claims, "Gotta taste them"

Temi claims to Satoshi, "No. When it says theres alcohol in it in the taste, that has alcohol in

Deedee claims, "Except when they don't"

Deedee claims, "(sorry)"

Sparkles trails off, "That's ... "

Satoshi claims, "Perfect. So anything that does not taste or mention alcohol, but has it in the
crafting recipe can be tooled and RP'd as alcohol free"

Eiphraem states, "As an outside party to this, what it seems to say is: An IC choice for a non
-standard/substandard material ban is handwaved of any difference to avoid coded alternatives, and
the barrier of that is something the crafter may not be aware of and has to find out through
mechanical trial and error. I don't mean to be hostile, but that's unfortunately the message being
taken away here, so clarifying it would probably be a good idea."

Deedee nods.

Wimpled asks, "Is something going to be added to the craft help files of the items that do or do not
taste of alcohol so people can figure that out prior to crafting?"

Kinaed claims, "The staff support that any recipe that contains alcohol in the game contains it, and
will not change strings, etc, to say otherwise. HOWEVER, if a character wanted to ICly make a
version of the recipe that is different for RP reasons, we wouldn't hold them in violation of
policy, though we'd expect that not to happen if the alcohol is called out as a major ingredient in
strings they cannot change."

Kinaed states, "The point is that we want to be supportive of people's individual variations of RP
where possible and minor."

Temi states, "The easiest way to create any recipe is exactly as described. If you're adjusting it,
you probably need a better understanding of it."

Wight nods to Kin "I'm just thinking that maybe it should be explicitly clear that players should do
so if they want to excersize that section of the policy. Red text or something there noting to
contact staff if they are interested in doing so. -at least the first time they do it with an item-

Wimpled claims, "I have not tried every medicine in game. I have no idea which ones give taste
flags and which do not."

Kinaed says to Wight, "No, that would make Staff gatekeepers and directly responsible for people's
choices and RP, and we don't do that."

Deedee says, "It doesn't take long to test, Wimpled."

Wimpled claims, "The policy is entirely unclear if it's just "you can do this with certain types of
alcohol items" without specifying. "

Wight nods to kind "Gotcha."

Wimpled says, "It should be available for people prior to crafting, DeeDee"

Wimpled says, "Otherwise people will break policy"

ToffeeApples nods

Temi muses, "Okay, we do have some other topics, so let's move on. Emsa, you had a topic?"

Satoshi states, "So unless the built-in taste strings say otherwise, it doesn't break policy. Cool.
I'd suggest the Physicians ICly document which things you CAN safely do that with, then"

Percivale says, "I think a medicine being codedly useless in a game based on an era where a lot of
medicine was bunk is pretty on-theme, for what it's worth. However, more on-topic, I'm experiencing
dissonance between what I read in the helpfile, and what is being expressed here. This sounds really
awkward to stumble into as someone not informed on the situation, and I'm not even really sure how
someone would go about knowing the difference between something that's okay, and which isn't,
without a lengthy process, to learn something their characters would know before they even made the
items. It's super awkward."

Emsa nods.

Percivale claims, "Quieting point, since we're moving on"

ToffeeApples muses, "Wouldn't it just be easier to say, "If it's in the ingredients, it IS an

Kinaed says, "Clearly people don't want to move on. I'd like to state my final stance on this."

ToffeeApples says, "And if you don't like it, subvert the GI that imposed that policy"

Satoshi says, "Update to tooling policy says that mechanical ingredients are not always in the IC
product, but we should let Emsa talk."

ToffeeApples states, "*GL"

Kinaed claims, "In a normal world where someone wasn't making this issue a point of contentious RP,
having a bit of wiggle room in the policy is a benefit for everyone."

Kinaed claims, "We have far more vague policies out there that everyone accepts normally."

Emsa queries, "Alright so this is a curiosity towards what I feel is a dissonance of what people say
and what they do. I'm still relatively new as a roleplayer, but I do my best to try to be active
even if I'm still pretty awkward. But one thing I've noticed is that people generally mention to
recommend people, often and so on. Now I do my best to rec others while on the other end, I don't
seem to be getting them at all. So hence the curiosity, is recommending something that the community
as a whole generally doesn't do, and if so, why? Otherwise, what do people want to see before they
decide they want to recommend someone?"

Kinaed says, "In my view, this seems like an issue between players that people want staff to weigh
in on to settle a dispute. I don't think that's our space. "

Deedee says to Emsa, "I try to whenever I see something worth recommending"

Deedee states, "I do forget sometimes"

Viper states, "From an RP standpoint, you could use modern day drinks as reference. They have these
crazy Kombucha drinks that are alcoholic, very slightly, but you can't tell when you drink it, and
you'll hardly get drunk if you drink a lot. You'd have to drink like 30 of em."

Kinaed says, "My view is that Delana can RP removing alcohol from recipes, and everyone can ICly get
upset about it, and that's fine. And staff aren't going to come down on people for that RP as it
seems thematic."

Kinaed claims, "We're also not redoing crafts to support that line of RP."

Kinaed wonders, "So, I think that covers the points I need to make. In fairness to the other people
with topics, may we move on?"

Satoshi states, "Recommends are something that you should do if you see behavior that meets the
guidelines in the help recommend helpfile, and or you think it helps the game in some way"

Temi muses to Emsa, "Can you repeat your topic to bring it back to the front for people?"

Niamh listens to Emsa!

Emsa queries, "Alright so this is a curiosity towards what I feel is a dissonance of what people say
and what they do. I'm still relatively new as a roleplayer, but I do my best to try to be active
even if I'm still pretty awkward. But one thing I've noticed is that people generally mention to
recommend people, often and so on. Now I do my best to rec others while on the other end, I don't
seem to be getting them at all. So hence the curiosity, is recommending something that the community
as a whole generally doesn't do, and if so, why? Otherwise, what do people want to see before they
decide they want to recommend someone? "

Kinaed smiles at Emsa.

Kinaed says to Emsa, "Thank you for your patience with my derailing you earlier."
Satoshi claims, "I often recommend people for RP behavior that I feel like helps the game flourish
or supports, generates, or otherwise strikes me as thematic. I tend to hold off on recommends until
I have a couple of things to suggest though, since staff often nixes recs if they feel like just a
big 'i like them'"

Violet claims, "I try to recommend once a week or so when I feel someone is particularly driving RP
or shaping the game."

Kinaed claims, "I've noticed, as staff, that we get recommends in spurts too. Like people keep a
tally list of who they'll recommend, then get around to it once a week or month."

Temi claims, "One thing I notice is sometimes people send recommends when they receive a recommend
from someone else as a reminder. And certain types of behavior people seem more likely to recommend
for than others: like hosting usually gets recommends."

Lucretia states, "I recommend people when I feel they deserve it."

Satoshi says, "I often don't have the time to do it all at once though, so I list them up, like
Kinaed said yeah"

Violet pontificates, "Speaking of which... I need to recommend someone!"

Deedee says, "I've also made it a policy to hold off on RP for antagonistic things until the RP
thread has come to an end"

Kinaed questions to Temi, "Didn't we have a change waiting on the board to remind people when
leaving RP to recommend? Just don't think it was implemented yet?"

Temi nods at Kinaed.

Temi claims, "I think so"

Deedee states, "Hold off on recommends for*"

Temi claims, "Or going and actively stirring up trouble with a big event. Just general 'good RP' is
a bit more spotty depending on people's moods and time"

Kinaed says, "It's worth noting that some people have probably been trained out of recommending for
every little thing because staff can and do reject recommends that read like "I like player X's
style" - we need to see Player X doing something that moves plot and is beneficial to storyline."

Temi states, "Though, a lot of the time I don't see what people aren't recommending for - only what
they are, because I'm less present on grid."

Kinaed nods at Temi.

Satoshi states, "But typically, because of the once a week thing, I tend to wait a little bit
(sometimes more than just a week because time constraints) so that the recipient gets a more
noticeable recommend. I feel like a rec talking about specific behavior is better than a general

Kinaed nods at Satoshi.

Deedee nods.

Kinaed says, "General ones are often rejected; staff are looking for specifics."

Temi says, "We do intend them as an above and beyond, not necessarily something to be expected when
your RP is perfectly fine."

Satoshi claims, "'X is always there and helps move RP' feels weak compared to 'This scene was really
struggling and X stepped up to make sure everyone was acknowledged and responded to. It was a busy
scene but when they did Y it felt impactful'"

Temi says, "We'd never ban someone for never getting a recommend or anything like that."

Satoshi states, "Also you DO cap on recommends eventually, you hit 100 percent and stop benefiting
from your rpxp percent with them"

Temi claims, "But still get QP from them."

Deedee claims, "Read over the recommendation helpfule and tick off what the player's done to earn a
rec. makes it easier for staff to award the right amount of QP/rec level"

Lucretia states, "I think only antagonists cap at 100."

Kinaed claims, "The recommend system was designed to support people who drive RP for others (ie,
villains) by the way. Generally chatting with someone and being nice won't pass muster."

Wimpled states, "Anyone can cap at 100."

Kuzco states, "You stir some shit and I'll rec you"

Lucretia states, "My bad."

Jaquelette questions, "Quick question -- For the purposes of driving RP, are antagonistic
interactions intended to be spontaneous? I'm not quite sure how I should engage in such"

Satoshi states, "So a longer-lived, thematic character will reach that point--and yeah but you get
QP from GIVING recs, so if that's the only goal just send you more recs your self"

Temi says to Jaquelette, "Not required! Either way. We love antagonistic interactions of all

Kinaed claims to Jaquelette, "Not necessarily - staff don't really concern themselves with how RP
comes about, and it also doesn't need to be antagonistic per se."

Satoshi says, "I find that personal antagonism is better received than in general random acts of

Emsa claims, "Mm. I see. Because I'm a little... self conscious with this? I'm not sure how long ago
I've joined by now, maybe a month and a half by now? And the few recs I've got are mostly from the
same player. So this sort of gives me the feeling of 'okay if people want to rec, but I never get
any, am I doing something wrong?' Even in attempts when I try to drive out with roleplay in a scene,
for example, hence the question."

ToffeeApples says, "Driving RP means that you are giving others things to RP about and around even
when you're not directly involved. Leaving ambiguous evidence at a crime scene, and adding a rumor
so that others can get involved indirectly."

Kinaed nods at ToffeeApples.

Deedee states, "It's worth mentioning, if you haven't got a rec for something and think you should
have, you can totally recommend yourself"

Deedee states, "I haven't done it, but says so in the helpfile"

Viper says, "Or eating children in Church Square."

Niamh nods seriously at Viper.

Kinaed states to Emsa, "I can't say if you're doing something wrong having never RPed with you, but
I think it's probably a mix of not knowing what recommends are for and also the genuine issue of
people just forgetting to recommend."

Lucretia says, "Believe it or not, you can recommend a person whose name you don't know."

Jaquelette wonders, "Ahh, so having hooks to latch onto RP-wise from the interaction, no matter the
direction of success?"

ToffeeApples states, "Also, recommends aren't everyday occurances. They're a small reward, but they
are special because you don't get them every week."

Satoshi claims, "Being able to place someone as an antagonist helps drive both characters story,
rather than everyone agreeing 'oh that person is just a killjoy/mean to everyone/just a dick'"

Kinaed nods at Lucretia.

Kinaed nods at ToffeeApples.

Temi queries, "Anyone have any additional advice or thoughts? Or should we move on to the next

Lucretia says, "You see a rumor that makes you RP with someone? You can ask staff to recommend the
person who started it. Anything that drives RP counts."

Temi nods at Lucretia.

Satoshi states, "But yeah I've found that if you want consistent recommends you might try starting
events, trying to be more thematic, and trying to focus more on other people's stories"

Viper trails off, "Completely off topic and OOC, but I imagine Lithmore looking just like LA right
now with all of us here. Empty of people, full of NPC's... LA's NPC's are the homeless and the
wandering meth heads. Everyone's self quarantining. But I have a warped mind so..."

Percivale claims, "I think it's important to add that if you're having fun with your RP, and those
around you seem to be having fun with their RP, I think that's good validation on its own merit, and
that shouldn't be forgotten."

Deedee nods at Viper.

Satoshi says, "I have gotten a lot of recs just from being actually invested in other people's
characters and stories, instead of just a token 'how are you' and then jumping into my own stuff"

ToffeeApples claims, "You can get a 100 on a paper, without getting a "gold star", but a "gold star"
isn't a cholarship either. If that analogy makes any sense"

Kinaed nods at Satoshi.

Venamelia claims, "Thanks"

Deedee says, "Everyone in this room should 'infect self plague'"

Satoshi claims, "Which is an easy pitfall for a lot of RPers and not a specific targetted comment"

Temi asks, "Okay, shall we move on to ToffeeApples' topic?"

Deedee nods.

ToffeeApples says, "I wanted to say I disagree with the policy that purchasing an item with QP when
in the travel room should count as 'avoiding crafters' especially when you're purchasing an item
that is canonically originating from the region you're traveling to. "

Kinaed claims, "I don't think it counts as 'avoiding crafters' but I also don't think staff work
becomes free because someone is off grid."

Deedee asks, "Is it permittable to order something from a crafter OOCly for such cases?"

Satoshi says, "I agree at first, but I also see that that could be a slippery slope, also"

Sparkles muses, "You can get mail in the travel room? Send a PC a letter and have them mail it to

Kinaed nods at Sparkles.

Satoshi says, "It's hard to RP you GETTING it from the other place, though"

Satoshi states, "If you order it ICly"

Deedee claims, "You can mail yeah, but yeah for getting something from outside of lithmore"

Temi claims, "We've definitely supported RP like 'can you help 'repair' this item for me."

Ryia says OOCly, "Can you assume delivery, similar to a messenger?"

Niamh says, "That's kind of been a thing forever. Sort of like Nobles who want to start out with an
ancestral sword don't get the item for QP from Staff just because it comes from their homeland/off-
grid, they have to go to a crafter to buy one and typically frame the RP as having the item

Ryia says, "Oh, didn't mean to say that OOCly."

Deedee states, "Nod"

ToffeeApples says, "Think if you went to hawaii and bought a tiki statuette. That'"

Niamh states, "Keeps the people who have worked to be able to make the items in the loop and doesn't
negate the off-grid aspect."

Deedee nods.

Deedee wonders, "Is it okay to pboard a crafter to have the item made?"

Deedee claims, "For off-grid stuff"

Satoshi says, "Oh that sorta makes sense. I think it's hard to juggle, both sides make sense, but if
staff makes an exception it'll set a precedent"

Sparkles asks, "Maybe run a plot while you are gone and see if you could manage a way to get the
stuff that way?"

Kinaed says, "I don't know about that. In this particular instance, it was a non-essential prop
that's a very high level craft (level 73), so we felt that it wouldn't be available, especially not
for QP bypassing crafters, but potentially just wouldn't be available."

Satoshi says, "Ahhh"

ToffeeApples claims, "I understand why on-grid crafters should be utilizied, and I do so often"

Niamh says, "Easiest solution would be to buy from an on-grid crafter when you return and RP that
the item broke during travel, they're 'repairing' it."

ToffeeApples claims, "That feel very contrived"

Niamh states, "It is."

Deedee states, "That's how things often are when starting a new character."

Deedee states, "As well"

Niamh nods.

Kinaed claims, "Not sure how it's lesss contrived than spending QP for it to magically appear in
your inventory from staff."

Kinaed states, "We do a lot of contrived things, even down to 'why did you show up to this room with
WhereRP on'"

Deedee says, "Instead of a functional item, might be worth QP purchasing a prop"

Deedee says, "To take to a crafter after"

Kinaed states, "So long as people aren't contriving in a way that's setting themselves up as
'special' or a 'winner' of something (ie, applying no social leverage, etc), that's fine."
Deedee nods at Kinaed.

Temi states, "It's sort of a weird edge case where there's reasons to support it, but if we go with
the general principle, we need to support what's going to be good for the game in general."

Venamelia wonders, "Can someone give me a brief idea on what happened? I feel like I lack context.
Something about an item having needed to be repaired but QP having been involved and on grid

Kinaed nods at Temi.

ToffeeApples trails off, "Come on, that's a bit of a stretch, Kinaed. If there were craftsmen that
were run by players in every place that someone might visit, then ok, but..."

Kinaed claims to Venamelia, "A player wanted us to supply an item they couldn't get on grid (even if
they had been in Lithmore as it's not sold in stores) for QP. Staff said no."

ToffeeApples muses, "Why not have staff prepare a custom order from a vNPC to a local craftsmen so
they get their RP, and then staff retools it for my purposes when they receive it? Then everyone is

Wimpled says, "That's a lot of work for staff."

Kinaed states, "And bypasses the system we designed."

Viper says, "Staff do have a lot on their plate as is."

Temi says, "The rule we came up to for a consistent way to handle it: if the item type is available
from on grid shops, we can help you to buy it and retool it. If the item type is only available by
crafters, (which is not the case for anything deemed to be essential) you have to get it through the

Temi states, "If the item type is not available on grid or crafters, it falls under normal QP for
item from staff policies."

Satoshi claims, "Well, staff also says no if you avoid crafters AND metrics"

Temi nods at Satoshi.

Niamh claims, "Definitely fine to come up with a way to RP already having the item and having it
repaired, customized, touched up, etc., at the time of purchase from the PC crafter. Folks do that
all time. It's usually nobles with things they brought from their domain. Legacy circlets, swords,
etc etc. Just good to do the legwork yourself. "

Temi says, "Yes, that doesn't incorporate metrics, which we don't want to circumvent either."

Satoshi claims, "But yeah I don't think it's honestly that much of an issue unless the crafter just
refuses to oocly communicate"

Viper states, "Or.. instead of showing up for it, run a plot to recover such an item. Make it a
quest for others to be involved in if said item is to be 'special'"

Satoshi states, "Which... some people honestly do. some people refuse to oocly agree to 'repair'
your item when they mechanically make it, or get upset when you try to oocly juggle stuff to make IC

Deedee nods at Viper.

Kinaed states, "I think that really only happens if they don't have the skill to make it."

ToffeeApples says, "Yes, but being physically away from the crafters makes that make little sense.
Anyway.. it's not a critical item, it was a present I thought might generate a small amount of RP
between a couple characters, I just thought the way the policy is handled when there's an IC
distance rift between character and crafter is rather silly. "

Satoshi states, "Still could be, you just have an easy workaround now to order from an existing

Percivale queries, "I think I'm lacking the historical context here. Is the reason avoiding crafters
is bad because it makes the crafters less important (and may upset players who want to be involved
in it), or is it more because it creates work for staff when staff have a system in place so they
don't have to do it? Little of option A, little of option B?"

Temi questions, "Okay, we're over on time. Lucretia, you had a quick thing to add at the end?"

Lucretia claims, "I feel like there should be a way to see how long a cyan has been created for, or
perhaps characters in general. I feel it offers several advantages, and avoids certain pitfalls."

Wimpled claims, "Could always ask the crafter to receive the import of the item for you, so it is
received no matter how much time your travel takes."

Temi says to Percivale, "A little of both."

Sparkles says, "I don't think that's a good idea and feels like it could be used for a lot of meta."

Niamh nods at Wimpled.

Venamelia says, "Some crafters are difficult to reach >.> And woah, I missed everything then. Guess
I missed or forgot with time zone stuff. Sorry."

Satoshi says, "Per policy, Lucretia, you should treat ALL cyans like thye are brand spanking new"

Kinaed nods at Satoshi.

Deedee nods.

ToffeeApples states, "I'd point out, that the amount of RP that a crafter would receive with these
proposed solutions, would be receipt of a single letter. "

Satoshi claims, "You never know who is a brand new player and who isn't, so assume they are all
brand new."

Temi says to Lucretia, "I do think you handled this particular situation correctly, and we'll make
sure Kin's briefed on the situation after this"

Lucretia claims, "That covers the advantages, but not the pitfalls."

Niamh states, "And pay for their work, which they earned by leveling the craft."

Wimpled says, "When you get back on grid, you'd get the item from them, and RP that way."

Lucretia nods at Temi.

Kinaed states, "I don't think people should have a timer to tell them how new someone is, I think
they should abide by the rules of being blanketly supportive of helping cyans establish themselves."

Kinaed claims to Temi, "Oh, there was a situation? I'll check in after, yeah."

Temi nods at Kinaed.

Kinaed claims to Lucretia, "Please note that I'm completely unaware of any situation in my comments
there, and will consider what you suggest in light of that after finding out more."

Temi asks, "Alright then! Anything else before we wrap up?"

Kinaed says, "Thanks for everyone's patience with 'just rolled out of bed' Kinaed."

Lucretia states, "Thank you, Kin. I wish I could offer a better alternative to avoid situations."

Kinaed nods at Lucretia.

Viper claims, "I've been minorly busy, but I almost have a cool plot drafted up."

Tasker questions, "Quick Q! How long do we think the court is gonna last after this?"

Temi declaims to Viper, "Exciting!"

Viper says, "That I will run eventually, when time permits."

Tasker claims, "I need to decide how many energy drinks to imbibe "

Niamh claims to Tasker, "50"

Sparkles claims, "All of them."

Sadon laughs.

Deedee claims, "Oh yeah court"

Temi says, "Depends on how much people have in the way of petitions. I only have a small amount to
add to it myself"

Tasker claims, "Fair enough"

Deedee claims, "Quick question"

Kinaed declares, "Lovely to see everyone online today. I hope you have some great RP!"

Deedee asks, "Do non-Great Lord GLs get stopped and frisked at the gate?"

Temi says, "If you have to accept, you get frisked"

Jaquelette states, "Another question from me after this one"

Kinaed nods at Temi.

Kuzco declares, "I don't get frisked no more!"

Temi states, "Likely more politely for GLs."

Kuzco dances.

Lucretia says, "I have a question."

Kinaed asks of Jaquelette, "We're over time - ask quick? :)"

Kinaed declares to Lucretia, "Quick! :)"

Deedee states, "Okay."

Lucretia claims, "Is the GI supposed to be Noble? No help file I found references this."

Jaquelette questions, "Any quick tips for new players to sink their teeth into RP hooks?"

Kuzco says, "No but she has prestige"

Temi says, "The GI is treated as if they are effectively noble."

Kuzco questions, "But they can't do projects, amirite?"

Satoshi states, "Check people's help character <name> to see their RP hooks"

Viper states, "THey can become Noble too."

Kinaed says, "I think a GL's social class is adjusted by their roll, and the GI is a noble, yes."

Deedee claims, "They're at the same precedence level as a GL"

Lucretia claims, "So like Great Lords? It would be nice if this was explicitly stated."

Kuzco pontificates to Jaquelette, "Troubadours!"

Deedee claims, "Great lord I mean"

Satoshi states, "You can use those as an easy in, but also yes troubadours"

Satoshi smiles.

Niamh states, "I like to think of it as the Pope in olden times. The Pope's not royalty, but he's on
a similar par."

Temi states, "They don't ICly become a noble, but they're on the same level."

Tasker claims, "They're not a great Lord I don't think but nobody is going to argue with a Grand
Inquisitor in that regard."

Lucretia nods at Niamh.

Jaquelette asks, "And ah, is it ever possible to be in more than one guild?"

Kuzco declaims to Niamh, "Vicar!"

Kinaed states to Jaquelette, "I'd check other players' help files to get a sense for RP hooks, then
develop my own once I know how people write them up and use them"

ToffeeApples states, "The GI is not a pope"

Niamh grins at Kuzco.

Kuzco declares to Jaquelette, "Nope!"

Satoshi says, "NOPE one guild at a time"

Viper wonders, "Even if they're gifted lands?"

Kinaed nods at Temi.

Niamh states to ToffeeApples, "Yes, we know."

Kinaed queries, "As per HELP PRECEDENCE, I think?"

Kuzco eyes Viper warily.

Temi claims to Jaquelette, "Our code does not support it anymore, no."

Kinaed states, "You can see where the GI sits in the grand scheme of things."

Viper says, "I seem to recall several Gentry in such positions becoming elevated to nobility."

Satoshi scuffs foot. "Sadly. but you can be NON CODEDLY part of the guild if the GL agrees."

Deedee claims, "To jaq officially/codedly only one. you might be able to work something out with
guild passes and such though"

Satoshi states, "Guildskills need to be taught to you, though"

Deedee nods.

Temi says to Viper, "If they were the titled leader of a domain, they would be noble, but nobody
would do that, because titled nobles are expected to procreate, and GIs are expected to not."

Percivale claims, "That should probably be clarified in the guild helpfiles (which are especially
decentralized, even if for good reason). I was actively looking for information on that for a good
hour the other day and couldn't find it."

Lucretia claims, "Of course, but it is very obvious for the other three. Great Lord helpfile
specifically states what being raised to Noble status means for them and their family. For the GI
this information is vacant. It confused me to the point where I didn't want to touch it. I know what
it likely means, but I can't be 100 percent sure."

Viper trails off, "Ah yes... procreation..."

Satoshi questions, "We're quite over time though, could I be sent back please? :)"

Temi claims, "GIs don't have families."

Kuzco eyes Viper warily.

Viper smirks at kuz.

Kinaed says, "I think this is clear in the help files such as HELP PRECEDENCE."

Temi claims, "Okay, yep, we're done! Sending everyone back. We'll give it twenty minutes or so
before starting any court stuff"

Kinaed exclaims, "Thanks for coming everyone!"

Deedee waves.

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