Log of OOC Meeting - 2019-08-24

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Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:09 pm

Kinaed states, "A reminder of the OOC Chat Pact: Regardless of what we discuss, we understand and truly believe that everyone on TI does the best they can, given what they know at the time, their skills and abilities, the resources available, and the situation at hand. We will be respectful of this and each other at all times."

Kinaed muses, "Today's Agenda is:

   - Staff Updates
   - Player Heartbeat
   - Player Topics

Is there anything anyone would like to add to the agenda to make certain we discuss it today?"

Francesca says, "I might have a tiny topic if it's not the tiny topic someone else is already going to bring up."

Voxumo claims, "I have something"

Kinaed claims, "I have two registered topics at the moment, Kirill and Brando"

Kinaed states to Voxumo, "Adding you"

Kinaed declaims to Francesca, "You too!"

Kuzco says, "I have one."

Kuzco states, "Tiny ."

Kinaed claims to Kuzco, "Got you"

Kinaed is AFK, but your tell will go through when she returns.

Kinaed claims, "Okay, if you've registered a topic, PLEASE pre-write it so that you're ready to go when I say it's your turn."

Satoshi exclaims, "I had a small one!"

Kinaed has awarded you 2 QPs: Scribe - oops, musta typed Raspberries

Kinaed says to Satoshi, "Got you"

Kinaed has transferred Sparkles.  [OOC]

Kinaed gives a layered frost cake, decorated with black lightning images to Sparkles.

Estella declaims, "I have one too!"

Kinaed claims, "Okay, kicking off Staff Updates - last week, I was barely around, but did get to make a nuisance of myself regarding policy a few times."

Kinaed states to Estella, "Adding you."

Kinaed finishes abruptly, "On my desk - Turf Wars"

Kinaed muses to Azarial, "Your turn to update us?"

Azarial says, "Just a few minor bugs and typos this week.  trying to adjust to the return to a school schedule and everything else."

Kinaed nods at Azarial.

Kinaed says, "I don't see anything other than bug fixing on the board, but I do see a lot of minor tweaks. Thank you, Az."

Raspberries wonders, "On the bugs, I haven't had a chance to test rumor share vs rumor tell, but it might have changed syntax. has anyone been able to share rumors?"

Kinaed claims, "It has changed syntax if that's in. I'll make sure we didn't slip through the cracks in updating the help file, please typo"

Raspberries nods.

Kinaed queries to Basdes, "Can we get your update? :)"

Basdes questions, "I have two points: I'd like to start off with saying that these past two weeks (since I missed the last meeting) I've been preparing some things like lore and events for the Into the Long Knight arc. Some building, typo fixes and recommendations in the mix. The second, is feedback. Is everyone enjoying the plot?"

Kinaed says, "Oh, it's not in completely, which is why it's not updated yet."

Tasker declares, "Absoutely thrilled with the current plot! One thousand kudos to Basdes!"

Basdes states, "Oh, three points. *"

Kinaed smiles.

Estella declaims, "I love the plot!"

Justice declares to Basdes, "I've been enjoying it thus far. I have no idea what I'm doing, but it's been helpful to get me into learning things I'd have not known about before. So thumbs up from me!"

Satoshi says, "I like the plot, but at this point it's a little hard to get into if you're not one of the Big Players. Still fun to hear about, and I do like that the effects effect everyone"

Basdes smiles at Tasker.

Jennifer says, "I love it, because it sort of involves all in sundry. Like no one can ignore the weather. So it involves the people who may not be combat related, and it sort of is an us verses them sort of thing. So I love it."

Voxumo shrugs "It's been interesting, though my personal enjoyment of it has taken a massive plunge due it reasons I'll not disclose here."

KING claims, "Really super into the new plot, yeah, I've been having a ball."

SomeoneLoveable says, "I'm of mixed opinions on the plot. I love the story of it. I just...don't know how to interact with it since it's a lot of combat mostly I suppose. I'm really bad at doing open ended sorts of things though."

Jennifer says, "I mean yeah, if you're not a shaker and mover of TI you can't really get in edge wise. But the effects of the plot, involves all, which is amazing to me personally."

Kinaed asks of Voxumo, "May I ask you contact Basdes privately and let him know what's affected your enjoyment that isn't okay to share in OOC Chat?"

SomeoneLoveable says, "OH. i was just giving a response... sorry."

Sparkles wonders, "Plot seems awesome. Is there a peek at how to include folks in a plot advance in ways besides coded names? As plots don't have the "secret" option anymore?"

Kinaed wonders, "I'd also like to ask that, the Movers and Shakers of TI - hearing this, please consider doing things to HELP other people get into the plot?"

Kuzco says, "Sorry I was AFK, I love the plot and it's possibly the most excited I've been in a long while"

Estella states, "Maybe you can contact your guildleader to see if you can help? I don't know about others, and --  was about to say that, Kinky."

Brando says, "LOL the plot has forced me to learn to hail and dismiss or summon my horse mount. No lightning to the head for them. :P"

Basdes claims, "The plot itself to date has not been combat oriented in the slightest. It builds up to that point, of course, since combat characters don't really get action lately. Glad to know that the overall response has been positive - If something's shitting you, please note me. Player submitted plots have been a bit overwhelming with the amount of work involved, so I'd like to thank you all for your patience."

Kuzco says, "I've been assigning the bards with missions far and wide and tossing the fruits of the plots to other people to work on"

Kirill says, "I generally don't enjoy 'here's the latest disaster, react' type plots for various reasons, but I've enjoyed all the detail going into the items on grid, the updates, and the global emotes. It's getting better."

SomeoneLoveable says, "Yeah maybe I just... need to know better how to interact with it. "

SpaceJackal claims, "I dislike how it pretty much affects those that forage/hunt heavily, because it is unsafe out the city walls."

Elysaveta states, "Mostly seems to be dodging lightning for me, so far, but the atmospheric echoes and things are very neat."

Satoshi states, "Yeah I've gotten tossed some bones but the Meat and Potatoes for the Big Stuff is sorta... you can't really share it since it seems to be Secret Order Information at this point. I'm sure non movers and shakers can still investigate but it feels moot since the best of the city are already on it"

Francesca claims, "I've been involving quite a few merchants in the parts we've been involved with, though that's been mainly the merchants who are about the most often as they're the easiest to get a hold of."

Francesca pontificates, "But yeah, it's been great!"

Basdes queries, "The lightning lasted for 2 days. Has anyone been experiencing issues since Wednesday?"

Elysaveta states, "Nope! That's just all I can contribute in involvement."

Kuzco says, "I've been sharing as much as I can, TBH, but yeah some of that is Order intelligence"

Estella states, "Other than some atmospheric stuff, I've been delegating duties to others to the point that I'm worried that people will be like "Man, Estella is so useless". :P"

SomeoneLoveable says, "Yeah it feels like it's limited in scope, which isn't a bad thing afer all there's always going to be more stories that might effect different parts of the player base."

SpaceJackal claims, "It just sucks on my end, since my character just recently learned how to hunt and forage. And now all he's doing is sitting around, waiting for... something to happen, I suppose."

Basdes says, "I'd like to ask the movers and shakers to include characters in whichever way you can - It's very difficult to run a disaster plot so open ended."

Brando says, "I haven't experienced that with my foragers SpaceJackal ... I just stay the hell away from the tainted areas and i learn to look ahead to where i am going so I dont run into boars, bobcats, mages , daravi etc."

Justice says, "I've been trying to include the Reeves, Bards and Merchants as best I can. Though as I said, I'm still learning and do muck up here and there. Like adding food by mistake..." then goes to hide under his rock.

Satoshi claims, "I think it's less ACTUAL dangers and more people ICly react like if you step outside you'll die"

Kinaed nods at Satoshi.

Satoshi states, "I've been outside the walls for extended jaunts, but then again I do that normally."

Estella claims, "Kudos to Tenebrae for what they are doing, by the way. I think it's really cool."

Jennifer claims, "Yeah I mean here's my thought on it if anyone cares. You can't involve them all. It's hard. Depending on the plot. So I can personally appreciate, that even if my char can't get involved in the big stuff, that the effects effect everyone, and in that way I feel involved. i don't know if that makes any sense, or what."

Kirill wonders, "As I understand it, the danger is to the south. Haven't heard of anything to the north of the city?"

Kuzco grins at Justice.

Raspberries claims, "Yeah, I ran around outside during the worst of the storm, and was fine."

Basdes says, "Alright, since we're budgeting time, please note me with grand concerns so I can address that."

Satoshi states, "No but you still get told to go back inside the wall but people patrolling and/or worried friends."

Basdes says, "A point I feel I need to make is to remember to be COURTEOUS to your fellow players.  I've heard too many stories lately of players being made to feel unwelcome in the game.  This is utterly unacceptable.  I'd like to remind the player base to read two very important helpfiles: 'HELP POLICY RP AVOIDANCE' and 'HELP BLACKBALLING'."

SpaceJackal says, "I stepped out of the city once to gather wood, and got told to head back by a Knight."

SomeoneLoveable pontificates, "OKie!"

KING states, "I can confirm, I've been running around outside the city a ton and haven't had much trouble. It's a lot of (good) IC paranoia imo."

Sparkles states, "I did notice rejected plots don't return items."

Raspberries states, "Oh, that's not good."

Basdes nods at Raspberries.

Elysaveta states, "Well, plots are only temporary, so things will (probably) go back to normal soonish."

Preposterous claims, "Well, whether or not you head back is entirely up to you."

Kinaed states, "The example I heard of what Basdes is talking about here is someone walking into a public place where someone was sitting, walking right back out, and asking for RP on the OOC Channel."

SpaceJackal says, "Really? Because I only step out once, and got bothered for it. It makes me not want to step out again until this is oover."

Kinaed states, "That's pretty uncool, let's not do that sort of thing."

Voxumo claims, "That's a major dick move."

Estella states, "That is very uncool."

KING states, "Oh, that's not good, no."

Estella questions, "By the way, anyone up for RP?"

Kuzco claims, "That's much muy uncool"

Satoshi states, "Yikes that's super bad."

Tasker states, "1v1 me estella "

Estella throws down a gauntlet. "Come at me, mate."

Kuzco states, "Can I join"

Kinaed queries to Basdes, "Anything else to add?"

Basdes states, "I agree that it's a shitty move. Please brush up on your policies and remember: Don't be a dick. I'm done. :)"

Kinaed claims to Basdes, "Thank you for your work this week. It's much appreciated by everyone."

KING thumbs up.

Justice claims, "I have ooc turned off, but if I'm anywhere and you see me, I'm up for RP."

Kuzco nods at Basdes.

Basdes states, "It's an act of love for the game and its players. <3"

Kuzco states to Basdes, "Great woord."

Estella cheers for Basdes.

Kinaed muses, "Okay, let's kick off the Player Heartbeat. How was the game for everyone this last week, folks?"

Kuzco claims to Basdes, "Ahem work"

Kuzco claims, "Intense."

Kirill has returned from AFK.

SomeoneLoveable states, "I'm burnt out really. lack of motivation kinda yeah."

Kuzco states, "I think I've reached the peak amount of hours I can play per day and remain a productive member of society IRL"

Kinaed comforts SomeoneLoveable.

Jennifer laughs.

KING claims, "Incredibly  good, I have been having so much fun."

Jennifer states, "Kuzco that's just funny."

Tasker claims, "Good! I don't think I've ever been so busy on my characters before."

Kinaed says to SomeoneLoveable, "No shame in taking a break. It is a game, afterall."

Francesca states, "This was honestly one of my best weeks for RP. I just want to thank everyone who RPed with me this week because it was awesome and intense."

Voxumo states, "Tiring... but in a good way. Takes alot to walk about publicly as tenebrae."

Estella claims, "Kinda bummed out. The start was great, but it took a sharp turn."

Raspberries claims, "Some good scenes, a lot of waiting around."

Satoshi states, "I've had a LOT less time to RP but I have been doing my best to play when I can and still getting some fun RP"

Preposterous is doing fine.

SomeoneLoveable states, "I feel like everything I do in character is just shitty and doesn't do much for my character or my enjoyment. I'm gonna be eating a party sub not a sandwich here soon, but my rl isn't helping."

Jennifer says, "This is sort of my first week back. It's been okay. Not my all time high yea week, but not an all time low I'm frustrated week either."

Kinaed comforts Estella.

Preposterous pats Estella, however.

Sparkles claims, "I've had some interesting RP. Been interesting social changes."

Raspberries could probably get out more.

Kinaed comforts SomeoneLoveable.

Kinaed nods at Jennifer.

Justice claims, "I've had some very good scenes myself."

Kinaed muses, "Anything shitting anyone (that isn't already a topic) that they want staff to know about?"

KING says, "I've had a lot of new faces and new angles with my girl since the plot started, on top of her personal stuff, so I'm really overjoyed tbh"

Satoshi says, "I have also found some AMAZING hidden things and I'm STOKED to find so many secrets, loving that I can have stuff to do that doesn't just eat my rpxp but is still entertaining"

Estella claims, "It's just a kink in the armor. Overall, I still love TI. Everyone is so kind and polite. Especially the staff. They've been a huge help to me over the weeks and this week in particular. Much love."

Brando claims, "Since i now have an Alt .. I have been swapping between them both and i achieved a low RP result for the both of them .. which i was happy with. 4-5 hrs each together is the average amount of time RP ed this week."

Kinaed smiles at KING.

Sparkles states, "I've had some scenes of late where folks seem to have a habit of being passive aggressive in emotes."

Estella queries, "Actually, Kinaed, my topic is probably better for this part of the meeting, should I?"

Kinaed exclaims to Estella, "Sure, I'll add you to that list. Thanks!"

Kinaed claims to Estella, "You"

Kinaed claims to Estella, "Are already on the list"

Kuzco says, "She means she'd like to talk now"

Estella claims, "Yeah, my topic is 'what is shitting me'"

Kuzco states, "As we are in the 'complaints' section"

Kinaed says to Estella, "Oh, no - please wait your turn, sorry."

Estella nods.

Satoshi says, "I HAVE noticed a little passive agressiveism in emotes"

SomeoneLoveable states, "I think I actually have one."

Kinaed says, "I don't want to spend too much time in the Heartbeat because I have six registered topics"

Kinaed says to SomeoneLoveable, "Adding you"

Estella nods.

Satoshi claims, "I typically direct people to help rp culture since there's a line in it about that, that seems to work"

Kinaed nods at Satoshi.

Moneybags is idle.

Moneybags is no longer idle.

Kinaed claims, "For those experiecing passive aggressive emotes, please drop me a note to let me know what's going on. It doesn't mean I'll automatically talk to people, but it'd be good to know. Maybe we need a reminder general note or something."

Voxumo prefers to leave all their passive agressiveism for sticky notes.

Sparkles states, "Top example I think it's not automatically assuming a missed emote in a big scene is a pointed snub sometimes things are missed."

Kuzco claims, "I'd like to remind people that while we are all enriched by going out of our way to prove RP to others, it's not our main task in here"

Estella muses, "What is a passive aggressive emote?"

Kuzco says OOCly, "Provide"

Kinaed claims, "Or even just here in OOC Chat - we're noticing some passive aggressive stuff. When we see it, we think the person doing it is the bad guy. Please don't be the bad guy"

Kinaed nods at Kuzco.

Kinaed nods at Sparkles.

Kuzco states, "Passive aggressive would be like"

Kinaed states to Estella, "An emote that assumes someone else's motives."

Kuzco shrugs his shoulders because Estella hasn't replied to him, clearly uninterested in what he has to say.

SomeoneLoveable cringes.

Jennifer says, "I tend to ask oocly if I think it is a pointed snub or not. Because I of all people can understand that people miss things. I miss things. sometimes I try to play the game of how many people can I acknowledge in one pose and find I've missed one."

Kinaed states, "And responds nastily. Yep, that's an example."

Examples: Satoshi looks at Estella for her stupid question, reponding, "This is a passive aggressive emote." [Satoshi]

Estella states, "Oh, I see."

Kinaed nods at Jennifer.

Raspberries says, "Remember that osays are fine to check whether someone missed your emote or not"

Kuzco nods.

Kinaed states, "I miss things in this chat because I have not only the chat, but tells and wiznet, etc."

Estella queries, "But you also have my heart?"

KING says, "Oh, that makes sense. I was worried that it was more of like... aggressive characters. Alright."

Estella states, "I thought it was something you could reasonably address ICly. But those examples, yikes."

Kinaed claims, "So if I fail to respond to someone... it's because I'm doing this usually right as I wake up at 7am on a Sunday and there's lots of spam. I often reread logs and go 'oh damn, I somehow failed to see X person ask a question'"

Satoshi says, "Important to remember. If you're being mean or snarky in speech, don't also do it in emote descriptive words. THAT is passive aggressive or like, active aggressive."

Kinaed nods at Estella.

Kinaed claims, "Okay, let's move on because we're starved for time and have a lot of people today."

KING thumbs up!

Satoshi shooshes.

Kinaed says to Kirill, "Please kick us off with your topic :)"

Jennifer claims, "Or if you don't want to do an osay, i'll ask the question in my pose, like you might ask someone a question twice, because the first time got no response and you think they didn't hear you."

Kinaed nods at Jennifer.

Kirill says, "Minor issue, but I think we need to rethink the sit command, which takes EITHER an object OR an emote. It should probably be one or the other, for sanity's sake. Every time I go into a public tavern type spot, I see someone try to 'sit table' which, when there's no coded table that can be sat at, results in 'NewbieJane sits table'. They end up embarrassed and often stand up to try again, maybe two or three times before they give up because results weren't as expected. Can we just remove the emote part and have people include the sitting in their regular emotes -- as most people I assume already do? That way sit can always expect an object if one is specified and not convert to an emote if said object is not found."

Kinaed says to Kirill, "Thank you for the feedback, we'll add it to our list of things to consider."

Sparkles muses, "Or public spaces with implied furniture could get said furniture?"

Kirill claims, "Emotes are great, added to a lot of things, but I think maybe we went too far with this one."

Voxumo is always amazed the bar at the queen's insn't an object that allows sitting at

Satoshi states, "I've noticed that. Or a way to make joinspots more obviously JOIN SPOTS and not furniture, cause I sometimes make mine furniture if it's thematic."

Raspberries says, "Likewise you can't sit at a table AND use a emote"

Kinaed queries, "Anyone else want to say anything or ask anything about this before we move on?"

Sparkles says, "Sitting emotes also mess up color codes for languages."

Kuzco says OOCly, "I hate implied furniture"

Kuzco states, "Ahem"

Raspberries claims, "Language isn't processed in sit emotes, yeah"

Jennifer says, "We all, collectively hate implied furniture."

Kuzco says, "Buy furniture and give woodworkers work"

Jennifer laughs.

Jennifer smiles.

Kuzco says to Kinaed, "Ready to move on"

Raspberries nods in agreement.

Satoshi nods to Kinaed. 

Kinaed claims to Brando, "You're up :) Please introduce us to your topic. :)"

Brando says, "The typo error is that TI-L FACT 25 BOUNTY is no longer applicable as a 'fact' and there is no help file on it anymore. Please fix."

Satoshi says, "Probably better to put on the typo board."

Azarial says, "Post a note please"

Raspberries nods.

Kinaed says to Brando, "Thank you. Please report things like this by writing a note on the Typo board"

Brando trails off, "Will do. And ..."

Brando says, "Can we make it coded so that if the player turns up in OOC chat that they and all their alts get the gift item automatically? My alts would have loved this cake. :) I feel it is also unfair to force us to make a a choice on which character to play to recieve an unknown gift specially if that gift is money]. Please consider this idea. Thank you."

Kuzco says, "It's an ooc perk for attending an ooc chat, man"

Raspberries states, "No, it's just for the character you decide to bring"

Kirill claims, "Belatedly, most join spots are described as furniture, and they can't be sat at, so that's extra confusing for newbies."

Kinaed claims to Brando, "As this is an OOC room, you can bring your alts."

Kuzco asks of Kinaed, "Really? Huh"

Satoshi claims, "Yeah this is just a gift for showing up"

Kinaed nods at Kuzco.

Jennifer declaims, "Bring them, bring them all!!!"

Jennifer laughs.

Kinaed says, "Some people do to hide their alts"

Satoshi states, "The more you know"

Raspberries floods OOC chat.
Kirill eats a layered frost cake, decorated with black lightning images.

Kinaed says to Voxumo, "You're up. Please introduce us to your topic :)"

Voxumo chuckles as all their alts share the same ooc title

Voxumo coughs and clears the cobwebs from his throat "I wanted to bring up the possibility of bringing the Blacklist command to better fit in with commands of a similar value. As it stands, Blacklist has two functions, it prevents the target from buying from any shop, and it prevents access to most functions of the bank system. The first of it's function isn't the issue, as it fits the power-level of similar commands, redlist and levy. What I mean by this, is that there are ways around the blacklist, as a retainer can be used to purchase the item, losing out on any benefit from haggling, or another player can purchase for the affected. However the effective banning of the affected player from using the bank has no such way around it. Even with redlist, the player has ways around it, IE bruteforcing their way into southside. Levy is also within the players ability to 'fix' by paying the fine. Blacklisting is completely dependent on the leadership of the merchants to undo, and during that time there is no way, I know of, to get access to bank funds. Not even southside banks will allow the person to withdraw or pay. I'd propose the removal of the losing access to bank commands to bring it better in line with similar commands, or make certain banks willing to do business with the affected. Or if the desire to keep this aspect remains, increase the cost greatly to be on the scale of exile and excommunication commands."

Voxumo claims, "For clarification, I have had two characters blacklisted in the last year, none currently, so I speak from experience."

Kuzco claims, "You can't use retainers to buy anymore"

Sparkles claims, "Blacklisting also takes a low amount of IP for the impact and lasts forever."

Kinaed claims, "I've taken note of this, and I think it warrants Staff debate."

Kirill asks, "Blacklist takes a lot of silver to implement though, does it not?"

Voxumo really? Well still can have another player purchase for you.

Raspberries nods.

Kuzco claims, "Yep"

Satoshi says, "I have actually been thinking on this as well. You just absolutely are now forced to depend on someone else's coin entirely, with no access to yours."

Francesca states, "Well, the helpfile states it takes 10 IP but it really only takes 5."

Kirill claims, "I like the idea of allowing people to do business in Southside, maybe."

Francesca says, "To blacklist someone, that is."

Kinaed says to Francesca, "That seems like a bug"

Raspberries claims, "I've brought it up before that cutting off the entire banking system seems a little overkill for it."

Kinaed nods at Raspberries.

SomeoneLoveable states, "Yeah I agree."

Basdes nods at Raspberries.

Francesca says, "Yeah, I meant to bug board it back when we had to blacklist two people back to back and it didn't take as much IP as we thought it would but I forgot. Sorry, Kin."

Kinaed exclaims, "It will go into staff talking points. Thank you!"

Satoshi questions, "Or skeezy places, yeah. Because why would the brotherhood care if the Merchant's Guild banned someone?"

Voxumo says, "That was it for my topic"

Satoshi wonders, "Maybe allow the BH to take a tithe per withdrawl?"

Kinaed states to Voxumo, "Thank you :)"

Kinaed wonders to Kuzco, "You're up. Please introduce us to your topic?"

Kuzco states, "I'd like to ask if subverting the Tenebrae and Sapiente is still reliant on knowing their screen name. If it's not, I'd like to get that back. Else it'd be, in an IC sense, the moral obligation of all upstanding citizens to gang on the BH GLs."

Azarial claims, "I'm wokring on that.  it's a bit of a mess."

Basdes states, "Currently you need to ICly know the screen name."

KING agrees with kuzco. 

Kuzco says to Azarial, "Okay. Thanks man."

Kinaed says, "I don't remember where we're at at the moment, but no matter what we do, it's a bit fucked."

Kuzco states to Kinaed, "It's ok bb"

SomeoneLoveable claims, "There be no good things for BHood. "
Azarial nods at Kinaed.

Voxumo trails off, "The current state of the Tenebrae is not the result of what you re likely thinking Kuzco..."

Voxumo says, "There really isn't loveable"

Kuzco says, "It's why I spoke in conditional"

Satoshi questions, "I thought people hated the Tenebrae for joining up with the reeves and knights?"

Kuzco trails off, "That... is IC info"

Kinaed states, "Because brotherhood members tend to be so paranoid that they don't even share to their own guild who one another is, it's hard for guild members of a Tenebrae (this is variable, but tends to be the trend) to support their own GL even when they're in the guild."

Satoshi exclaims, "That's available in rumors!"

Kuzco declaims, "You are available in rumors!"

Raspberries claims, "Things are tough for that whole class of characters, yeah"

Kinaed claims, "And it might not be true, but let's keep IC info out of the meeting."

Cheeky queries, "If I remember right, it was decided that you can't or shouldn't be subverting someone because it was the 'right thing to do?'"

Kinaed states, "We can speak in conjecture, but shouldn't even be discussing IC rumors OOCly."

Satoshi declares, "Noted!"

Raspberries nods.

Kirill says, "That sounds like a difficult thing to know about and enforce."

SomeoneLoveable says, "Brotherhood characters are very hard to play at the moment, it's like one guild wiht literally everyone hating on them and not much benefit becauase policies and things feel heavily restricted, not that they necessarily are."

Kuzco states, "They have some nifty perks, but yeah it's an antagonistic faction by design"

SomeoneLoveable states, "That's kinda my feeling on theguild so this just makes my head hurt."

Kuzco says, "Same as the Knights"

Voxumo wants to know these perks.

Kuzco says, "They get to RP with you, silly."

SomeoneLoveable claims, "They don't have perks I know of save for one at the moment. Maybe I've just never been a good member of it."

Kinaed states to Cheeky, "You're correct, so we need to think a bit on this because there are people whose reasoning for subverting or supporting someone would be a personal motivation to Do the Right Thing, but we don't want the 'general view of society' to dictate support, we want the strong commitment of characters to decide it"

Voxumo chuckles at Kuzco "I mean, I'd consider that a form of punishment, but to each their own I guess."

SpaceJackal is idle.

Brando nods at Kinaed

SpaceJackal is no longer idle.
SpaceJackal has returned from AFK.

Kinaed states, "Anyway, this is in motion, and I think staff need to come up with a view and help file it so that we can have something on hand for this murky situation. Heck, I might work with the Tenebrae a bit further in person."

Kinaed claims, "So let's move on from this topic, but it's also going into Staff Talking Points and I'll be in touch with the Tenebrae."

Kuzco claims, "That's great! I'm done then."

Moneybags declares, "Ooh lucky!"

Satoshi loves the Brotherhood and reminds people you don't need to be IN the bhood to do BUSINESS with them!

Raspberries nods.

Kuzco states, "That's right"

Satoshi says, "Be gay, do crimes, make hekkin cash."

Kuzco >_>

Basdes says, "Aye. You don't need to be part of the black market to do business with it."

Moneybags declaims, "Thug Life!"

Kuzco <_<

Kinaed questions to Satoshi, "Please introduce us to your topic? :)"

Satoshi claims, "So, as a forager, with an, apparent raise of other foragers, I've noticed that there can be some issues with multiple people sweeping over an area all at once. And if someone REALLY has the time, a single person can just go through a whole area and clear it out. I don't really mind that so much--the room per room keeps it from being too unbalanced and letting people just get MASSIVE stockpiles of things.

BUT it does take a few IRL days for stuff to come back, and if that room gets foraged in the meantime to pick it over (or it's almost picked over already) it's really hard to tell HOW picked over a room is, and it's possible that a forager would accidentally reset the timer because currently we only see whether a room is picked over or not. It might only have 1 forage item left. I'm just suggesting a way to show HOW close to picked over a room is, perhaps showing in the forage list like picked over is. Such as 'This room is looking scarce', 'This room is almsot picked over' etc etc."

Kinaed nods at Basdes.

Raspberries nods.

Basdes hops off. "I'll review the rest later."

The air around Basdes folds in on itself and he's gone. [OOC]

Satoshi says, "I'm unsure if the recent scarcity is at all related to plots cause I've not seen anyone out foraging too, but it's been an issue before when I knew there were 2-4 other foragers picking over areas, and though that might be an easy solution to it."

Voxumo chuckles as he imagines a herd of 'foragers' moving about the wilderness like locusts

Kinaed says, "I thought that was already in place, or it might be in our 'list of things to do that we've agreed to already'"

Kinaed states, "So I'll see if we can find it and bump it"

Satoshi thumbsups. "Sweet!"

SpaceJackal claims, "Also, it could be picked over in different 'categories.' It could be picked over with flowers, but not with horns, bugs, or leaves, etc.""

Moneybags states, "Monopolizes foraging with his orphan slaves."

Raspberries states, "That would be nice, yes."

Satoshi says, "I've not seen that, Space, but I admit I'm usually only going for a specific item for a specific reason. I don't just forage for no reason."

Voxumo states, "We do need a villain who just gets all the orphans legally, and uses them for slave labour."

Sparkles queries, "Is there the ongoing project still about adding more unique things if they are suggested for certain rooms?"

Kinaed states, "I think you can check using the forage command, not look, so it may already be in place. I'll check, and if we need to update the help file, we'll get it updated"

Raspberries states, "Be the change you want to see, Vox."

Satoshi claims, "I know forage list only shows if it's picked over"

Jennifer sings the army song, "Be all that you can be."

SpaceJackal states, "That's a suggestion on my part. Categories of items that are foragable or not. Because someone searching for horns shouldn't get rid of the flowers, etc."

Jennifer laughs.

Satoshi states, "Unsure of just forage."

Raspberries states, "Forage list shows it yes, but it shows it even if you've only foraged once"

Kinaed says to Sparkles, "Yes, we're still taking suggestions, though we may reject them. At this point in time, contact Niamh as she owns the wilderness build."

Raspberries claims, "If there's 3 forages left in a room, it will still says 'picked over'"

Moneybags states, "I'm just waiting to open a factory."

Raspberries states, "Err"

Raspberries says, "Two forages left"

Satoshi asks, "I've not seen that, actually, I'll need to pay closer attention maybe?"

Brando claims, "One of my characters has been out foraging lots and it might have been me that 'cleared' an area out ... but I was carefull to not pick over ever literal place possible to allow other foragers a chance. Map knowledge and knwoing what you can aquire where is a hidden skill on TI-L ... and it grows with in game progression and thats how it should be."

Kinaed states, "Sounds like we may have a less than optimal implementation of how the forage status looks. I'll ask Niamh to review"

Satoshi claims, "Yeah but it still screws over people for 2-3 IRL days if they accidentally pick it over again."

Satoshi says, "It would be a non-issue if we could see per room"

Satoshi says, "Since right now it's a crapshoot"

SpaceJackal states, "We shouldn't have to go to the ends of the earth just to get a few horns, to be fair."

Preposterous says, "I think 'forage list' tells you if an area has been picked ove.r"

Raspberries says, "There's the bejeweled peacock for that."

Kinaed finishes abruptly, "We may also need to consider if we should instance it - since the issue is preventing huge unlikely stockpiles, we could turn the command around and say whether they can find more is based on the character's recent forage ability rather than how often the room was picked clean"

Justice nods.

Preposterous claims, "Wait, someone said that. Sorry, half paying attention."

Satoshi claims, "I don't mind people foraging, I just don't like trying and having it reset the room for several days because oops, turns out there was only one thing and now me and everyone else foraging has to wait, and then OOPS also the next 2 foragers also reset it"

Kinaed claims, "But THAT may in itself be problematic for flow-on effects, so we'd need to consider it"

Kinaed says to preposterous, "I may have missed it :)"

Satoshi claims, "And I like the per-room because it realistically reflects the effect foraging would have on an area."

Kinaed says, "Okay, let's see.."

Satoshi hushes.

Kuzco says, "Static resource acquisition from grid is always slightly problematic"

Brando says, "There is no real life garantees when foraging .. it is a RL crap shoot and therefor to reflect that reality in game it should remain a crapshoot in my opinion ... as someone who has foraging characters. Use the outcome to drive your RP .. "Oh i had a bad day foraging today." etc."

Sparkles states, "Maybe we nedd"

Kinaed says to Estella, "I believe it's your turn to tell us about a topic? I know you have two, so please tell us about the one more important to you - then if there's enough time, we'll swing back around for your second topic."

Estella is idle.

Satoshi states, "Actually, no, Brando, IRL foragers would know the area very well and go to reliable sources to forage."

Estella is no longer idle.

Estella has returned from AFK.

Sparkles claims, "A Kings Forest equivalent for foraging but you can only visit every so often."

Estella claims, "I think there should be policy for deguilding a player. A checklist to protect the GL from feeling guilty."

Moneybags trails off, "Foraging futures exchange... lol"

Kinaed muses to Estella, "You can make one if you want? or a GL can?"

SpaceJackal states, "But when there are hardly any good days for foraging... it starts to be draining at times."

KING claims, "Yeah, IRL foragers are very conscious of where they go and for waht. It makes sense."

Estella states, "I mean like an OOC policy."

Raspberries queries, "Why?"

Azarial claims, "It;s a gl's duty to deguild as required."

Satoshi claims, "I think deguilding should be based on IC things, not OOC things"

Kinaed says, "As far as I'm concerned, if a GL doesn't have the ability to deal with any associated guilt for their decisions, then they're probably still developing as a leader."

Francesca claims, "I mean. My guild has IC policies in place for that sort of thing. I don't see why we need OOC policies personally."

Kinaed nods at Azarial.

Preposterous states, "Deguilding a character always feels relatively shitty, no matter how much documentation you have. BUT... I don't think there should be an OOC policy to it. It's based on IC situations, whatever the IC motivation is."

Kinaed claims, "I don't think it's a staff issue to enforce, at least."

Estella says, "I don't want people to quit because I didn't try hard enough to include them, is all I am saying."

Voxumo says, "I only tend to deguild someone who has been inactive for a ricidulous amount of time, or who is a problem child and has been given chances."

Voxumo has never felt shitty about deguilding someone.

Satoshi claims, "Also you aren't OBLIGATED to guild someone, and if they do something to deserve deguilding it's an IC consequence of their action."

Estella asks, "But what if the person is new, or doesn't understand theme?"

Kinaed nods at Satoshi.

Kuzco claims, "I deguild inactive barcs every week but I never had to deguild an active player."

Cheeky claims, "I can appreciate your stance, Estella, and I think Kinaed's suggestion of making your own checklist or guidelines is a really good one."

Sparkles claims, "At a certain point you can't let "or someone might quit" stop IC decisions. "

Satoshi says, "If they're cyan you should cyan warn them"

Voxumo states, "It's called chances. You can only give so many chances."

Kinaed says to Estella, "You should give them a cyan warning when their behaviour is leading up to deguilding"

Satoshi states, "If they aren't cyan they have no ooc protection from their own bad choices"

Cheeky states, "It gives you documentation that all members of your guild can read so nobody will be surprised."

Preposterous states, "Well, what I mean is, you never know how they are going to react. And, they may react in a bad way. But, if it's a solid IC decision, then it is."

Kuzco nods at Sparkles.

Voxumo agress with sparkles

Justice says, "I haven't deguilded anyone yet - but if/when I do it will be for IC reasons or because they're inactive. But you shouldn't have to feel guilty about it."

Azarial states, "How they react is not on the GL"

Kinaed says to Estella, "But beyond that, people learn more from mistakes than getting it right, so it's almost the GL's duty to expell them so they get the consequences of their action as a learning experience rather than condone bad behavior"

SpaceJackal claims, "If you gave them proper warning and chances, then there shouldn't be any guilt."

Preposterous states to Kinaed, "Well, if they are cyan, yes. If they aren't cyan, then no."

Kinaed states, "Condoning bad behavior out of guilt is bad leadership because it perpetuates the behavior"

Satoshi says, "Cyan protection was literally mentioned 3 times."

Estella wonders, "That's what I am saying. I think there could be a helpfile for that. A suggestion list of things to do and actions that can be taken or considered before deguilding them. Maybe even a warning upon the deguild command 'Are you sure they deserve it?'"

Kuzco nods at Kinaed.

Kirill claims, "Allowing them back in later can also be a second chance."

Estella states, "Upon using*"

Kuzco questions, "Maybe a board post instead of a helpile?"
Kinaed nods at SpaceJackal.

Brando nods at Kinaed.

Kirill states, "There's no hard rule that I know of that prevents someone from reapplying once they've learned their lesson."

Kuzco nods at Kirill.
Kinaed nods at Kirill.

Raspberries claims, "They don't need to deserve it to be deguilded"

Kuzco says, "Brotherhood is pretty tough on deguilding, heh"

Kinaed claims, "Yeah, and that can even be said during the kicking out conversation"

Sparkles states, "But it's not just about them. If they are a bad fit for the Guild that impacts other people."

Kinaed nods at Raspberries.

Voxumo says, "You can also have a corrupt guildleader who deguilds someone for personal ic reasons"

Kuzco nods.

Estella claims, "I never had that conversation. I just kicked them out."

SomeoneLoveable states, "I think she's just saying that it'd be nice like  to have a checklist for deguilding like we have one for submitting a complaint for PK. is these things commonly happening? then give them the boot."

Raspberries nods.

Kinaed claims, "It can simply be a GL exercisign their authority - because it's their authority."

Satoshi claims, "I think it's too situational to really put hard guidelines on it. You can like. Literally deguild someone because you're a powermad GL"

Kinaed nods at Satoshi.

Kuzco nods.

Satoshi states, "And that's IC and has it's own consequences"

Satoshi says, "Via the gambit system"

Jennifer states, "Yeah, and if you're deguilded, there's nothing saying you can't reapply if that gl isn't a gl anymore, or even if you want to try again and like talk yourself icly back in to a guild."

Kinaed claims, "Exactly. And the Staff don't want to get involved in policing that."

Brando smirks and nods at Voxumo.

Kuzco nods at Kinaed.

Moneybags states, "Agreed. Leave the guilds to the GLs."

Kuzco claims, "If you're kicked, step back, bide your time, wait for things to change in leadership, come back"

SomeoneLoveable states, "This has happened to me in fact when I refused someone membership to ta guild, they just waited until i was gone and they tried again."

Kirill asks, "Write an IC mail explaining the choice after the fact?"

Kinaed nods at Kuzco.

Estella nods at Kirill.

Voxumo admits they do feel somewhat weird about deguilding inactive folks as tenebrae, given the "And they should icly be killed bit."

Satoshi says, "Ah, the old asking dad because mom said no trick."

Brando nods at Kuzco.

Kuzco states, "I know of player characters who have done this many times"

Kinaed says to Satoshi, "Well, it's old and persistent for a reason. :)"

Satoshi states, "Just kick them out once you get wind of it. BOOP problem solved."

Kuzco questions, "Hey Vox that's a painless way to quit the guild, no?"

Estella says, "I did. I just feel like things could've been done to avoid it. Maybe I am wrong in thinking this way, but I thought my secondary job is to make the guild accessible to players, not kick everyone who doesn't cooperate with my vision out."

Satoshi states, "You're sorta backwards with it. I've noticed people tend to assume you automatically get in just because you seek."

Estella states, "That's my number 1 topic anyway."

Satoshi states, "That's not true. That's the opposite of true"

Raspberries says, "You can request them to be wrapped, Vox."

Jennifer says, "Right, so there's nothing wrong with that. Just because someone deguilds you, doesn't mean you can't try again. i'd say that it'd be more concerning, if you couldn't try ever again for life."

Kuzco states, "Yeah true"

Kinaed claims to Estella, "Well, it's also a GL's job to have a vision and achieve it. That might be to be very open, or it might not be."

Estella nods at Kinaed.

Kuzco says, "Also a GL's job to a) enforce theme, b) align with their own agends"

Kuzco states, "Agendas"

KING claims, "Also that, yeah. Just becuse you seek doesn't, in my mind, automatically get you in the door. But taht might be another issue."

Satoshi claims, "I have totally veto'd someone from joining a guild without regret because they just did not fit the theme. It was harsh but the character is harsh. It's all drama for the story"

Voxumo claims, "Used to deny alot of folks seeking the knights when he was EM, due to ic stuff"

Preposterous says, "Some characters don't mold into specific guilds. I've had situations where characters were given multiple chances, and it just didn't work - even given IC consequences and things didn't change. Others where they were inactive for months and months. Multiple IC situations where deguilding can happen. Sometimes people took a break and came back to the game. Sometimes people took a break and came back and retired the character. Things happen."

Kirill says, "It just happens that many GLs try to be open, because they know being a dick too often can lead to disgruntled membership and potential gambit."

Satoshi claims, "And if people can't handle that then, especially if they're cyan, suggest reworking the character to be more lore friendly."

SomeoneLoveable states, "As long as you're just not rejecting everyone I mean I guess it's not a big deal but my concern would be more if every guild is so hard to get into that we just have characters doing bar talk all day because no door is open to them, but I mean that's not happening."

Estella says, "I understand. How I feel OOCly and what I do ICly are totally different though. Please don't misunderstand me."

Kinaed claims, "As a staff member, I have a broad stance on these things."

KING states, "As a new 2GL I'm already getting my hands on that, and I know there will always be OOC harshness for that sort of thing, but sometimes that's how it works."

Kinaed states, "Firstly, guilds have the option of being very open or very exclusive, and where they sit on that spectrum is the GL's call."

Kuzco says, "Both ways have perks and drawbacks."

Kinaed says, "There's no staff view that a GL must grow their guild, provide the guild is large enough to 'survive' without a respirator."

Kinaed says, "For me, that's probably 3-4 active characters."

KING nods. Good to know.

Voxumo pleads for Kinaed not to remove the life support

Francesca questions, "Just a quick question. Kinaed, do you still have me on the topics list?"

Kinaed states, "If your guild is larger than that, I don't give a fuck if a GL wants to grow it or not"

Kinaed says to Francesca, "Er, oops, no"

Estella exclaims, "I <3 u, kinky! You're awesome!"

Kinaed claims to Francesca, "Do now"

Kuzco claims, "Let's move on to Fran."

Voxumo is sometimes envious of the Merchants "Imagine if the brotherhood was that large."

Kuzco shudders.

Francesca claims, "Don't envy us."

Francesca says, "I just wanted to suggest that noble projects not get deleted when someone types 'cancel' to cancel out of an edit of said project. We've had two projects deleted now by that happening so I thought I'd bring it up. Not that I can do anything with noble projects. I'm more just making an observation. And I didn't know if this is already being worked on or not, but thought I'd mention it regardless. That's it."

Kinaed finishes abruptly, "No, wait, still something to say -"

SomeoneLoveable wishes the brotherhood had soe more wind intthe sales.

Kuzco nods at Francesca.

Kuzco claims, "AGreed."

Kinaed claims, "The next thing is - it is a Privilege, Not a Right, to get into a guild."

Kuzco nods at Kinaed.

Estella nods at Kinaed.

KING double nods.

Estella states, "I feel the same way."

Raspberries nods in agreement.

Brando claims, "Uhmm this game is a game where characters can DIE for a whole host of reasons. If one can't handle that OOC in an adult manner then I feel they have no business playing this game at all. It just a game though ok. what happens IC is no reflection upon you as a person. You are an actor .. this a a play. ( rant over )"

Preposterous nods at Kinaed.

Kinaed finishes abruptly to Francesca, "Noted - that seems like a bug"

Kuzco nods at Brando.

Satoshi nodnods.

Kinaed nods at Brando.

Kinaed says, "Okay, let's move on to .."

Voxumo slinks up close to someoneloveable "Once this plot ends, I may have shtuff in the works. Big plans."

Kinaed queries to SomeoneLoveable, "You're up :) Introduce us to your topic?"

Kinaed says, "Also, it's 2 minutes until the top of the hour - if anyone needs to leave, please send me a tell."

SomeoneLoveable claims, "I really have enjoyed my time in the merchants and have had a very enjoyable time and have been very successful it seems as a merchant, but it is more of a request rather than say a positive or negative thing, but it'd be great to  just get some people coming into shops as it is a large part of rp for people. I love letters and it's fast but it's great to get rp, since that is literally all my merchants do. It adds a lot to my burn out because the time I could be RPing I am having a huge docket of things to finish. By having people come in and place the orders is a really good way to get that rp. and stuff. Part of it is on me of course, but Even delivering things seems hard when people are just off doing guild rp for their guilds and the like. again it's not a complaint. so I don't want to sound like I am. "

Kirill says, "Hopefully that's in the queue already from the last time, but if not, really needs to be in there. Needs to be a check against status -- if a project is new, cancel should delete. If it's pending, approved, etc. cancel should cancel out of the editor."

Kinaed nods at SomeoneLoveable.

SomeoneLoveable says, "Please be gentle with me today I am... like emotionally fragile, and the fact  i have to say that means it's bad, but that's all I got for it."

Satoshi says, "I tried to mitigate this by INSISTING on an IC meetup with the person sending the letter. Would not make it until I talked to them."

Kinaed comforts SomeoneLoveable.

Kinaed starts writing a note. (This is an OOC action)

Kuzco states, "It's okay man, what I think would be neat is for merchants to send out who mans what shop, and what does it sell"

Estella declaims, "I never send mail. I can't write. You got nothing to worry about from me!"

Raspberries questions, "How did that work, Satoshi?"

Sparkles queries, "Can I suggest something?"

Kuzco says, "NO"

Kuzco claims, "Yes"

Satoshi claims, "They sent me a letter, I sent one back with 'great tell me a time we can meet' and then the RP consisted of me asking questions about their order."

Kirill queries, "I know it's 20 silver a pop, but messenger to all can help draw some activity to your shop. Ask your guild leader for some advertising funds maybe?"

Preposterous goes into shops all the time, actually. But, uh... "A lot of shops don't have a whole lot in them."

Raspberries wonders, "No, as in how did it work out?"

Kinaed finishes her note.

Satoshi claims, "It worked every time because otherwise I didn't make their shit."

SpaceJackal states, "Kuzco, there should be a bulletin on all the boards in the city showing the cities and who owns what."

Justice says, "I have tried to IC encourage meetings with any merchants I place orders with - though sometimes they never get back to me on it so I've had to go to someone else who will RP with me about their order."

Sparkles claims, "I wonder if some of that might be helped by more Merchants working together in one shop and not everyone going solo."

Jennifer states, "There is. There's one in the queen's anyways."

Satoshi states, "With one exception where out schedules didn't match and then I just sent letters and made it"

Raspberries nods.

SomeoneLoveable says, "I have  gotten a lot of orders. so much so that I have a hard time actually filling my shop with things to buy because or a while I had like 30 commissions, just... I never see a face so I get all my rp from other characters which I sink into my merchant."

Kinaed has returned from AFK.

Kuzco states, "It's a reasonable request."

Francesca claims, "Hey, we have an IC public directory of who owns what shops and what they sell. On all the public boards."

Kuzco states, "Okay, my bad."

Voxumo gasps at sparkles "A joint venture? Blasphemy!"

Kirill states, "I think it'd be totally fine to ICly limit the amount of work you do, too."

SpaceJackal states, "*the shops, derp on my bad"

Kinaed claims, "I think availability and so on is variable for folks, so I don't think there's much STAFF can do here, but! I do think players have heard Someoneloveable's request."

Kuzco nods at Kirill.

Satoshi says, "Someone's character also was using the Rumor system heavily and got some BAD backlash for doing it"

Kirill claims, "Put out a rumor that your merchant is full up on commissions until they can complete their current load."

Satoshi states, "Like ooc backlash of snarky rumors"

SomeoneLoveable claims, "It just makes it tiring when you really crave dithering and haggling and talking about your thing you really love doing and your character does, but you get a messenger because everyone's off doing their own thing and just wants a couch."

Kuzco nods at Kirill.

Kinaed claims, "So on that front, please help out if you can. And utilize any of the suggestions that people are making to help that feel right."

Kuzco states, "Thanks for reaching out SomeoneLovable"

Satoshi states, "I highly suggest forcing people to talk to you. After all you are the like, Only Woodworker right now"

Kinaed says to Estella, "I'm sorry, I don't think we'll get to your second topic today, but please bring it with you next week."

Sparkles states, "Its true RP about your craft as a crafter makes you feel like less of a factory."

Estella claims, "It's all right. It's not important."

Jennifer states, "Lol My char genuinely, goes to all the shops she knows that her friends in the merchant guilds run. So I'm sorry that you feel that way. Genuinely, I do. it sucks to not have the rp to back up the grind."

Kinaed nods at Sparkles.

KING likes to talk to crafters IC when they order for sure.

Satoshi says, "Hold the saw to their head and make them come talk to you damnit"

Kinaed exclaims, "Okay, we're at the top of the hour - and hopefully a productive one!"

SomeoneLoveable states, "Yeah that snarky rumor thing really killed it for me, I felt like it was nasty to ooc levels and snuffed my drive."

Kuzco declares, "Remember to post reviews on https://www.reddit.com/r/MUD/ !"

Kinaed states, "Thank you for attending, everyone. We appreciate your time and feedback about the game."

Satoshi says, "It was and we reported the snarky answers"

KING biiiig thumbs up! Good stuff!

Kirill waves.

Kinaed smiles at Kuzco.

Kirill eats a layered frost cake, decorated with black lightning images.

Jennifer declares, "Energize!!!"

Kinaed trails off, "Okay, here we go..."

Preposterous claims, "I think the rumor system should be used carefully. Put occasional rumors, don't flood them."

Moneybags exclaims, "Beam me home, Kinky!"

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