Log of OOC meeting 2/25/2017

Post Reply
User avatar
Posts: 640
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:54 am
Location: Delta Junction, Alaska
Discord Handle: Voxumo#7925

Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:21 pm

Kinaed muses, "Today's Agenda is:

- Staff Updates
- Player Heartbeat
- Player Topics

Is there anything anyone would like to add to the agenda to make certain we discuss it today?"

Kinaed listens to crickets chirp.

Vicannia tosses a tumbleweed to crush the crickets

Kinaed declares, "Okay, let's kick off Staff Updates, and if anyone thinks of anything - send me a tell!"

Kinaed states, "Last week, I... am sure I did something worthwhile. Lots of policy. *headscratch* Added the HELP METAGAMING help file. Um. A few help file updates, including HELP CONSENT. I'm sure I did other worthwhile stuff, but I can't recall it."
Kinaed has transferred Empena. [OOC]

Kinaed states, "I've still got Jail Automation."

Kinaed exclaims, "That's it for me. Az, you're up!"

Azarial claims, "Well, i pointed niamh at the change board, and most of it came back, so i have been playng catchup."
Kinaed smiles.

Azarial says, "Some work on assets, but nothing majorly useful yet"

Kinaed claims, "I saw that. I can't believe how many changes she tested (I'm sure everyone will hear more about it later)"
Kinaed nods at Azarial.

Azarial states, "A few crash bugs, some of which I can't quite fix yet but shjul;dn;t be likel causes."

Kinaed says, "Everyone, there's an assets spec sitting on the floor if you're interested and haven't seen it yet."
Kinaed nods at Azarial.

Vicannia questions, "Is it the same one from last time?"
Temi nods.
Kinaed nods at Vicannia.
Luella gets the ASSETS spec.

Vicannia states, "Just wanted to make sure before I bother picking it up."

Temi claims, "The same stack we dropped before, actually."

Kinaed says, "Just having a quick look at our Changes board, I don't see anything that's not a subtle bug fix for this week."
Kinaed queries to Azarial, "Anything further to add? :)"

Azarial states, "Not that I can think of."
Kinaed smiles.
Kinaed claims to Azarial, "Thanks for the work."
Kinaed claims to Temi, "You're up :)"

Temi claims, "I also did some testing, typos, requests and such. The usual there."
Kinaed smiles.
Kinaed nods at Temi.
Kinaed states to Temi, "Thank you for that. :)"

Temi states, "Have the start of a fairly well filled out set of asset templates, but planning to grab Niamh at some point for more brainstorming. Maybe the others."
Kinaed nods at Temi.

Temi says, "And had some connection problems. So.. hopefully get that under control."
Kinaed comforts Temi.
Luella drops the ASSETS spec.
Kinaed claims to Niamh, "You're up :)"

Niamh states, "This week I finalized two more mobprog archetypes for release, and put together a jousting area with real jousting, complete with nifty lances, an interactive audience/observation area and spiffy joust translation echoes to keep observers apprised of progress. I had a wonderful player volunteer to flesh out the echoes, and we now have 3 per strike success ready to go in. "

Niamh claims, "And joined Temi with some testing! That's it for me."

Vicannia trails off, "That sounds interesting... the jousting that is"

Empena claps her hands together for Niamh.

Kinaed claims, "Thank you, both of you."

Kinaed questions, "Okay, that's it for Staff Updates - Player Heartbeat! How was the game in this past week?"

Luella gives a thumbs-up.
Kinaed has transferred Tanim. [OOC]
Tanim opens a long hooded cloak, fashioned from a light and sheer cloth, revealing his identity.
Tanim stops using a long hooded cloak, fashioned from a light and sheer cloth.

Vlora sobs a little
Kinaed smiles.

Vicannia chuckles deeply "Well... Let's just say it's been interesting. Aside from the constant battle of Seneschal thing, had an unexpected scene that resulted in injurt

Kinaed claims, "I hope it was interesting."

Esmerelde says, "Excited about some possibilities, myself."

Caut claims, "It has been interesting for me, as well."

Kinaed questions, "Anything going on the staff need to know about, or things shitting you guys that you want us to consider?"
Kinaed smiles.

Kinaed says, "I'm always glad to hear the game is interesting."

Empena raises a hand.
Kinaed questions to Empena, "Yes? :)"

Vicannia states, "Though I'm amazed how horrible support is. First time I've really tried to get people's support, and good lord is it not worth it at all"

Addienna claims, "I've been personally disappointed, but nothing can be done for that. "

Addienna shrugs.

Laxus says, "I've had a very slow week"

Laxus trails off, "Went from 50-60 rp hours to well..."

Laxus says, "3 hours "
Kinaed asks of Addienna, "IE, outside of the realm of what staff should resolve?"
Kinaed comforts Laxus.

Azarial wonders, "What is horrible about support?"
Kinaed wonders to Vicannia, "Let's discuss support between ourselves privately after?"

Kinaed says, "Or now, that's fine."
Kinaed smiles at Azarial.

Azarial shrugs eloquently with more tail than shoulders.

Azarial says, "Your call."

Kinaed says, "Happy to discuss now."

Empena wonders, "Can I request a spot later so I can get myself typed and things can move on?"
Kinaed nods at Empena.
Kinaed claims to Empena, "Sure, writing you down."
Kinaed has transferred Margaux. [OOC]

Vicannia says, "Sure we can talk afterwards. It's nothing major just some things I've noticed"
Kinaed nods at Vicannia.

Margaux waves hello.

Empena claims, "To add to the bids thing, it's been a rough week for some folks to get involved in politics stuff"

Empena states, "It's not a lack of wanting to"
Kinaed asks of Empena, "Why do you think that is?"
Addienna says to Kinaed, "It is a matter that won't be staff resolved. I'm not going to be a broken record on the matter. sorry. watching the baby. "
Kinaed nods at Addienna.

Empena claims, "I don't want to blow up IC stuff but it can be hard to sit and ponder using a new system etc when there's a lot personally going on for your char."

Kinaed wonders, "So it's not something staff can assist with, is that it?"

Empena claims, "Also, arguably I have a char that should likely be able to participate in the system from an IC perspective but don't have the IP to actually influence the system."

Margaux claims, "I've not had IP either, I think we've crashed at the last couple of IP generation nightly rollovers."

Kinaed questions, "Is this a matter of IP numbers being poorly balanced?"

Vicannia claims, "Yeah... the ip requirement for influencing bids does some a bit high for how little it does."
Kinaed nods at Margaux.

Kinaed says, "Good for us to consider. "

Kinaed wonders, "Everyone is aware that IP can be purchased with silver also, right?"

Margaux muses, "Perhaps some manual reboot for the IP system when that happens?"

Caut claims, "You get so little IP monthly, you really have to be careful about using it."

Kinaed states, "I'll check about the crash thing."

Vicannia states, "At a max of five."
Kinaed nods at Margaux.

Vicannia claims, "Per week that is."

Caut says, "I was powerfully supported in a GL position and I got 9 IP for a month"
Kinaed nods at Caut.
Tanim begins to count their money.

Empena says, "I might put forth the idea possibly that like ... I don't know, GL important folks might get a vote outside of IP, or just pondering the IP that roles etc give as sometimes there's a disconnect between someone's arguable RP power and their coded IP power."

Kinaed says, "We may need to look at IP numbers again as systems have come in that may disrupt or not play nicely with the current amounts or balances people get - though it is intended that major IP actions come from pooling IP with friends."

Niamh says, "GLs do get a vote without spending IP."

Vicannia nods in agrees with Empena
Tanim has gone IAW.

Kinaed claims, "I received a tell: Hmmm. Unless something has recently changed, I recall netting around 24 a month when I was going after it."

Kinaed claims, "What are people generally earning"

Vicannia says, "When I was unsupported, about 5."

Caut says, "I got 9 a month when supported"

Caut asks, "Maybe raise the prices on major IP actions, but also give out a little more?"

Empena says, "I wasn't aware, so thanks for that, Niamh. If that's true that might need to be added to the bids helpfile or in the general help guildleader helpfile or something."

Margaux says, "I was earning 13 a week when I was playing in the past (as Court 2nd GL). Since I've been back and GLing, I don't think I've seen IP populate properly."

Kinaed says, "If it won't shift the balance, no benefit it changing it. I'd either raise the amount given out or make things cheaper."
Niamh questions to Empena, "When you do "city report", it should tell you?"

Niamh claims, "If it's not doing so, that's problematic. "

Kinaed claims, "Anyway, we're aware that IP costs for bid influences may need to be looked at, and IP generation across the board. Thank you for alerting us."

Temi says, "I think Empena means seneschal effects, not city supports."
Kinaed nods at Margaux.

Niamh says, "Ahhh."
Empena nods at Niamh.

Kinaed says, "Okay, let's see.."

Kinaed asks, "Caut, you're first up with a topic?"

Caut states, "I just read Rothgar's post on the forums. As one of TPB the mage baddies, I do agree with him that Knights and Inquisitors should know how ash works, even if I think that the item itself is a square peg for a round hole. I can explain what I know to any Orderite who is interested, but perhaps staff should write an Order helpfile. While secrets are important to the game, Orderites shouldn't be hindered by a lack of esoteric knowledge behind some of the code of the game."

Kinaed says, "I haven't read it yet."
Niamh nods at Caut.

Vicannia states, "Or at the very least only inquisitors and above should be privy to that knowledge."

Empena claims, "I'd certainly like it if I'm putting in a vote on the topic."

Kinaed states, "Re: mage ash, there's a help file for it."

Kinaed claims, "There's even see also for how to use it."

Kinaed claims, "I will note that I think there's too many commands in terms of object manipulation - ie, sprinkle, dust, smoke, apply, etc."

Margaux states, "IMO, that file should be Orderite only. I don't think the regular dude on the street would even have an inkling that that is a thing."

Kinaed states, "So as a result of thinking the knights probably couldn't decipher the help files, I've asked Az to consolidate Sprinkle into dust.."

Caut states, "Maybe that connection wasn't made. But, for the Orderites, dust the bad guy with the other bad guy's remnants. He will be sad."

Kinaed spreads her hands.

Temi says, "That much info seems reasonable for general public, or at least not crazy."
Margaux states to Kinaed, "I do think it would be reasonable to do a general overhaul of game commands to consolidate more broadly."

Kinaed says, "Okay, I'll think further about improvements in that area."
Kinaed says to Margaux, "I'm happy to take suggestions via Pboard or on the forums."
Kinaed muses to Empena, "Would you like to introduce us to your topic now? :)"

Margaux states, "If you can generate me a list of all game commands, I'll map out a new version."

Caut mutters about the shoulder command

Kinaed claims, "Type 'commands'"

Margaux states, "If that is everything, okay."
Vlora is idle.
Kinaed claims to Margaux, "It is, yes."

Empena says, "I think the question is about effects, it's been put forth on the forum discussion that it has secret uses or code tricks that only like elite players of ancient days are aware of, which I've no idea that might be total bluster or no longer accurate."

Kinaed questions, "I don't know what you mean. What sort of effects?"

Kinaed states, "Staff are pretty closed mouthed about what magic does, for example."

Azarial claims, "Mage ash? that;s pretty new."
Vlora is no longer idle.
Vlora has returned from AFK.

Caut claims, "I think she's saying that the Order doesn't know what it does"

Kinaed states, "We've been fairly blunt that it dispells magic, and the help file even says so in a light manner."

Kinaed states, "I think the issue is low experience actually using it."

Kinaed claims, "There's only so much training that is reasonable for people to provide, eventually people have to try it themselves. There are SOME secrets around mage ash that we prefer people figure out and pass down, just like magic secrets - but that's around building lore and whatnot, which just hasn't happened."

Kinaed states, "But for the most part, I think it'd be a good idea for the Order to experiment a bit."

Margaux wonders, "Can the Order do some RPA to get mage ash sent in from one of the counties or something?"
Kinaed claims to Margaux, "They already did, yes."

Margaux states, "Okay, good."

Temi says, "In general, I don't think we want to sustain that, though."
Kinaed nods at Temi.

Azarial states, "They need it for handling their own mage problems."

Vicannia muses, "Wait a second? Yeah that seems like something that is a bit broken given the impact ash can have on mages. but it sounds like it won't be something that occurs again?"

Kinaed says, "I think it's fine to give them something to work with in this starting phase, but we may find ourselves rebalancing it over time simply because we haven't seen it in action yet to know how it plays out, if it's good or bad for the game, and to what degree."

Niamh states, "Honestly, the impact is pretty minimal. It's a single-dust dust."

Niamh says, "*single-use."

Vicannia trails off, "But if it's a potentially unlimited supply... that is where the impact comes into play"
Temi nods.
Kinaed states to Vicannia, "Staff do not want enough mage ash to get into the game that it becomes ubiquitous. We are willing to help in trying times or to help knights get over the learning phases of what this stuff does, etc, but it's intended to be something that is rare and hoarded."

Margaux says, "Certainly don't want them going around dusting everyone for example, as a precaution."

Temi states, "No intentions of an unlimited supply."
Niamh nods.

Caut hoards ash.
Kinaed nods at Margaux.

Addienna claims, "At the rate the current, amazingly skilled, mages are going the could take out the current order on grid. "

Addienna claims, "Imo"

Margaux says, "TI's ecosystem doesn't really respond well to it."

Vicannia nods in agreeance with Addienna "They could do that any time really, but notice they don't because well they aren't so cold-hearted.
Kinaed states to Addienna, "I think the issue around that is that there's a steady coven out there, and if three people with poor combat skills attack even a grandmaster, the grandmaster is going to go down."

Kinaed states, "That is entirely non-magical, and how combat was designed."

Vicannia claims, "Statitically, I think non-mages have killed more people than mages have."

Kinaed says, "I think that's either true or close to true, overall, but in recent times, that is not correct."

Caut states, "It's also just harder to catch stronger mages"

Kinaed questions, "We have had a large number of pdeaths this month. 4ish, I think?"

Kinaed wonders, "I think only one of them was by a Knight/Reeve (Staff, am I wrong?)"

Vicannia states, "At least to my knowledge mages don't have an unenterable hideout anymore? I remember that is a large reason the manus tower was essentially destroyed as it offered a safe-haven non-mages could not get to."

Laxus says, "I do not think all were done by mages either though"

Azarial says, "Iu haven;t been checking; I know there was a hanging, though; i like to check the resulkts on those"

Empena wonders, "Speaking of said hanging, can I bring up one of my points?"

Kinaed claims, "I'm not sure it's any harder than it used to be. I remember people going after me as Aurian in 2003 and failing. I didn't even rename, I just didn't get caught for maybe 6 OOC months until the game shut down."
Kinaed states to Empena, "Sure"
Kinaed nods at Vicannia.

Kinaed states, "I think the current Manus has a GH, but no xblocks, similar to the Brotherhood"

Niamh says, "I think there was one lawful death and three non-lawful."

Vicannia queries, "So the brotherhood base changed too kinaed? Last time I was in it I remmebered the only way to get in was password and you had to be a member for it to even acknowledge the password"

Kinaed says, "It shouldn't require membership to know the password; that's too secure."

Margaux questions, "Is the manus GH as practically inaccessible to the knights as the Brotherhood GH is to the Reeves? (With Southside)"

Empena wonders, "I don't know the proper coded system, likely cnotes but can I introduce or bring forth the idea that if people are doing like ... things in public places were the wandering vNPCs/NPCs or just thematic people are likely to be, they submit something about doing stuff? "

Vicannia says, "They already do empena"
Kinaed claims to Margaux, "I can't speak on that as I didn't build it and know nothing about its setup. I don't even know if it's been released to the Manus."
Niamh states to Kinaed, "It was released, yeah. I would say the security and secrecy is on par with the Brotherhood's GH."

Vicannia states, "Like if a mage casts magic in public, order receives a blurb in their chat with the intro of the person and location, with about 5 minutes inbetween"
Kinaed claims to Niamh, "I'll chat further afterwards to get a better understanding of what that means."

Azarial says, "Depends on the metrics."
Niamh nods at Kinaed.
Kinaed nods at Azarial.

Vicannia glances to Azarial "Oh really? I was not aware of that. So it doesn't report at all if piety is really low?"

Margaux states, "I really think the VNPC world should react more viscerally than popping an alert."
Kinaed states to Vicannia, "When religion is high, it'll report. If it's low - no report or delayed reports, or less detailed reports."
Kinaed nods at Vicannia.

Azarial claims, "Piety. religion is always legendary."

Niamh claims, "Metrics affect a lot of stuff."
Kinaed says to Margaux, "Unfortunately, we can't. To have VNPCs or mobs or whatever be able to read a situation and react appropriately, we'd need AI."

Azarial claims, "Mail delays, movement costs around town, stuff like that"
Kinaed claims to Margaux, "So NPCs, VNPCs, and whatnot - they don't help. That's policy."

Laxus offers to write a sweet AI system but then hides.

Vicannia states, "It would be nice to know a bit more of the intracies of the metrics, as it seems each day new stuff is being linked to it, and alot of this doesn't exactly seem like information that could be learned icly."

Azarial states, "Nothing new has been linked in quite a while. the only planned addition is assets"

Margaux claims, "I think it poor form, then, to be using public street rooms to entrap pcs."
Kinaed claims to Vicannia, "It's all up on the forums. Nothing new has been added in months."

Vicannia queries, "Is there a link to the topic, or at least a title of the topic so I can find it on my own?"
Kinaed questions to Margaux, "I don't think that's an appropriate judgment given general MUD standards and what is possible or impossible. At best, I'd say I don't like the idea of this sort of thing going down when no PCs are online at all, but beyond that, what can people expect? :("
Kinaed claims to Vicannia, "Search 'City Metrics'"

Vicannia claims, "Will do after the chat"

Margaux wonders, "Put mobs in every room?"

Margaux claims, "It'll make it feel more real."
Kinaed queries to Margaux, "Without AI? ANd why would we want to even stop the possibility of someone getting ganked in public?"

Temi says, "We have mobs that can wander down all the streets, but they do wander."

Kinaed claims, "Staff aren't against people killing each other, so aren't inclined to program against it or scream naughty when it happens, provided all of the general policy requirements we deem appropriate are followed."

Margaux states, "I'm not saying to stop it, but to have the world more reasonably respond."

Empena says, "That's all good to know about metrics stuff, I didn't neccessarily mean they'd actively help and not alerting, more I'm not sure considering their presence for plot advances I suppose, which might already happen in some manner beyond what I'm aware of. "

Margaux claims, "I'm not against people killing each other in the slightest, I do think some circumspection should be required."
Kinaed says to Margaux, "It is not that simple, and it's highly subjective as to what reasonable is, even if it wasn't next to impossible to adequately program something without taking sides."

Azarial states, "It responds to speciic things, but most citizens are going to flee rather than assist. the autoreeves and autoknights are about all that actively interfere atm."
Vicannia questions to Margaux, "And what would the random mobs do that they don't already do, aka report magic and crimes to the respective guilds? It would make even less sense if they tried to fight the culprit"

Temi muses, "We have the Reeves that load up when there's crime, and they were attacking on load, and do you know who seemed to get attacked the most?"

Temi says, "Reeves."

Azarial says, "Pick locks, lawful is high enough, a reeve is going to jump your shit."

Kinaed says, "Well, to be fair *cough* Reeves were doing the most crime."

Temi claims, "It's hard to balance right, and we're looking at that."
Vlora is idle.

Vicannia chuckles to Temi "That was a bit amusing seeing that happen."
Margaux states to Vicannia, "They would make the fact that there are people there seem more real, and not so easily ignored."

Margaux states, "I'm not asking them to -do- anything per se."
Azarial says to Vicannia, "The first three times. after that it was tiresome. as were the complaints that the autoreeves were attacking reeves again and again."
Vlora is no longer idle.
Vlora has returned from AFK.
Luella is idle.
Luella is no longer idle.
Luella has returned from AFK.

Vicannia asks, "I don't think it would margaux... I really don't. If a mage is going to ignore the fact a room reports to the order, what's to say they aren't going to ignore the random mobs that will do nothing?"

Empena states, "Before we run out though, my other thought was, speaking of Piety levels I'd like to request the wider player base's thoughts in having me ponder some events or just ways for the Order to have some presence in RP that isn't just chasing mages around the street or the occassional wedding. Pondering religious holiday type events or such, pboard with some ideas and whatnots. Would love to come up with stuff I can then pursue ICly. "

Margaux states, "Hmm, I'm not sure that it wouldn't have a subconscious influence. I think it would, but no way of knowing unless we try."
Kinaed nods at Empena.

Temi states, "We could try increasing the number of random mob spawns, if we think it would help."

Laxus declares, "I think it would be fun if combat started in a public room if your common person mob was like "Nope!" and then peaced out the nearest exit flailing their arms "

Temi questions, "Does anyone have thoughts on that?"

Kinaed muses, "I think it makes it worse to have more mobs on grid that don't really do anything in tense situations, at least if we're looking at this in the light of 'what can mobs do'?"

Vicannia claims, "Masses would be nice, or even the chalice rising festival type thing that's been done in the past. I think holding player masses would be an easy way to increase piety through plot advances"
Niamh nods at Vicannia.

Laxus states, "I enjoyed going to a few of the masses when they were held months ago actually"
Kinaed nods at Laxus.

Empena says, "I'd love to hold a mass, I've gotten varying feedback if people would come or it's a waste of time, if people would come, I'll happily organize one"
Margaux states to Empena, "I was thinking of some sort of pilgrimage/event at the springs. I seeded some stuff in rumors about that sort of thing to go with my city council piety bump."
Margaux states to Empena, "I'd come if I was available."

Esmerelde questions, "Hold it and see if people come?"
Esmerelde grins.
Kinaed nods at Esmerelde.

Vicannia states, "Another is maybe public displays of the order. For example when Rothgar blessed the crossroads, that seems like something that would inspire the faith of the people, make them know the order is present. don't know if order did plot advance that but it would be worth it"
Kinaed nods at Vicannia.

Laxus states, "Ahhhh! The coffee shop I'm at tried to kick me off the wifi. Brb, starting a war."

Vicannia pontificates, "Be victorious laxus!"

Empena says, "Good suggestion, thank you, I'm getting a handle on the coded systems for stuff."

Laxus states, "Also, as a note on events and such, I always wanted to organize things when I was a Knight. Try to get loads of people involved with knowing the Knights/Order were present and always around. Nothing formal, but more like "meet and greets""
Margaux queries to Laxus, "Public recruitment day with some... martial type games?"

Vicannia says, "Though basically my biggest sugesstion is that plot advances don't always need to be trying to do something. They could simply be relaying to staff rp that has happened so that metrics can possibly be affected by it"
Temi nods at Vicannia.
Laxus says to Margaux, "Yeah, stuff like that. I was thinking like festivals, feasts, that sort of thing too "

Temi states, "I'm fine with that."

Temi says, "Especially if you are advancing plots and creating RP, I'd love to award for it."

Temi says, "RPA type plots don't have awards, but hey, I'm creating RP ones do."
Caut is idle.

Kinaed says, "I'm getting distracted by other channels :)"

Empena states, "As for mob loading Temi, there's a mood in the room that indicates someone stealing a body from River Square right by Cityguard Headquarters in front of the jail, I mean, that's got to be one of the most arguably patroled areas in game by Reeves, right? So would loading more wanderers totally stop stuff, no, but it might lead to more, Someone might see me thoughts. Or even just I don't know, echoes on timers something that reminds people that there is indeed a wider world even if there's no RPA on at the very moment to make it obvious."

Kinaed says, "Our time is up - is there anything people want to add? Apologies that we didn't seem to close out much today."

Kinaed says, "But we have raised a lot of 'food for thought', which I think is quite useful."

Azarial says, "Some thigs like that players need to fess up adn rumor them selves during or after doing something in broad daylight."

Temi claims, "Nothing came to me about that, no plots investigatin,etc."

Laxus tries doing a cartwheel followed by a weird flip thing to catch Kinaed. "Unicornnnnn"

Niamh trips Laxus.

Laxus lands, and Kinaed is... about six feet away from where she was standing prior.

Vicannia says, "Damn teleportation"

Laxus shakes his fist, "I will get you next time Unicorn!!"
Kinaed smiles at Laxus.
Margaux says to Laxus, "You're probably missing a required element in unicorn capture."

Kinaed whispers loudly to Temi, "Remind me to pay more attention to what I lick in the future."
Temi nods in agreement with Kinaed.

Temi states, "Seems wise."
Kinaed claims to Margaux, "Definitely not a virgin."
Laxus states to Margaux, "Will you help me? Please. I will do anything."
Azarial says to Kinaed, "Next time juist eat it on the spot. a pile of bloody bones tends to discourage the rest."
Kinaed states to Laxus, "She's not a virgin either."

Kinaed claims, "Okay folks, thanks for your time! See you next week. :)"
Lurks the Forums

Post Reply
  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest