Individual Piety

Rhothrian
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Re: Individual Piety

Postby Rhothrian » Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:48 pm

Starstarfish wrote:I think that could be an interesting thing to consider actually, adding some Priestly skills of some kind though I can't ponder off the top of my head what they might be at the moment. It might flesh out the role a bit compared to the other Guilds if the Order did have some Guild restricted skills of some kind.

Most of what was suggested in the original post were skills that would fall under the religion skill listing, but included coded affects with the idea of providing focus toward being a counselor, healer of the mind and increasing morale for believers thus increasing efficiency in meaningful ways. I would love to see the priest as a combination of medieval psychologist/Bureaucrat. Skills like calligraphy, public speaking classes and religious history aren’t enough to do the trick.

Rabek wrote:To reiterate what has been said by others (and myself): code can never save a situation where theme and RP is the problem. You can propose all the mechanical solutions you want, but if people can't or won't roleplay it, that makes no difference on a roleplaying game.


I would say it’s a combination of both, not on or the other. Ive been involved with rp on many different platforms. When the role and function of a priest is so shallow that it can only be essentially played one way then yes, it’s going to continually fall into the boring, unnecessary and annoying manner that no one wants to interact with here. Change the purpose and delivery of the message and different results can be achieved.

Rabek wrote:And as long as everyone in the guild is continuously thrown under the bus for the sake of keeping the GL slots filled (like the aforementioned page-to-GI, or the last time I tried to play Archbishop, or my friend who tried to play an Orderite scholar who only ever got grief or ignored for it), the problem won't be solved no matter how many toys get thrown at the Order.


The comment about people being thrown under the bus I can’t speak on and it sounds like a staff issue. However, if the staff were to suddenly adopt a more hard-lined approach to how the order could conduct itself would it cause an uptick in order RP or simply cause players to avoid them whenever possible? What I’ve suggested is a way to make the clergy useful and needed within the community regardless of the dark theme. All stick and no carrot does not foster cooperation. The part about you and your friend: Have you considered how mechanics mutually beneficial to both the orderites and the other parties involved may have changed the scenario or the outcome of the mentioned events? People would go to the priest in order to receive sacraments. People would post and participate in posted sermons that simulated IC presence at the cathedral or chapel. Other than correcting witnessed anti social or lewd behavior in public like most other Lithmorrans would do anyway there would be little need to go overboard and start preaching in the street. I’m not going to lie and say that mechanics will magically convince some belligerent player who doesn’t like enforcement of rules period to start giving hugs to priests but it’s a step in the right direction.

Rabek wrote:You seem keen on repeatedly dismissing the opinions of people who actually play(ed) Orderites. Maybe don't do that.
The problem is social, not mechanical. New toys might draw someone in for a week or two, but they'll just be driven out again.


Actually, I played a priest for about two months. Is that enough to make me an expert on the subject? No, but more than enough time to see that the role was hollow: nowhere near important, useful, desirable or needed as the theme seems to suggest. Ive been playing rpg games on various platforms for more than 30 years and have studied game design. I know what holes look like in a design and the priest set up has some problems. Also, the orderites that have commented aren’t clergy but part of the inquisition if I’m not mistaken. Furthermore, there is a difference between dismissing opinions and backing up mine during a debate such as this. If I hear something that I don’t agree with or isn’t changing my mind then I’m going to explain why that is. It’s not a personal attack. I’d just like to see the clergy side of the order be something that I and hopefully others would like to play again. People chose roles for a variety of different reasons and have very different playstyles. What exists currently is a setup for a straw man that will be bullied, assaulted, disrespected and or avoided unless mixed with something else. Even then they won’t act themely out of fear that they’ll be ridiculed. Does this not defeat the purpose of having priests as an option at all?
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Voxumo
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Re: Individual Piety

Postby Voxumo » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:50 pm

Many of the inquisitors did play a priest at somepoint, as icly an inquisitor starts out as a priest. Just because they are an inquisitor now does not dismiss their points.

But I must further what has been said.
Coded mechanics won't do shit if theme and the order is not brought to some stable point, a point that everyone is on the same page about. Knights were given shiny new mechanics, and I haven't noticed an increase in interest, odds are it wouldn't work for priests either.
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Starstarfish
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Re: Individual Piety

Postby Starstarfish » Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:12 am

Ultimately, regardless of anything else said - new mechanics can certainly be tried, and I'll happily embrace what I can to see them come to fruit. I wasn't 100% sure yet which of the proposed ideas here staff was considering. But anything that gives people a poke to want to interaction with clergy isn't a negative.

One thing, potentially to consider might be that various things seem to hint at the idea that (like traditionally IRL) is that Orderites might fill more of a teaching role. As such, it could be nice if Teaching might be an Order skill that could be picked to 36 - to indeed be able to codedly fulfill that role.
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Kinaed
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Re: Individual Piety

Postby Kinaed » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:21 am

I can't solve people's problems based in opinion. Insofar as I'm concerned, the Order theme isn't "broken". It may have room for improvements, but "it's broken" is such an extreme statement that I find it distasteful and discouraging in terms of even running a game.

It's interesting that my response post with suggestions on what I thought might be beneficial changes was largely, if not completely, ignored. The general purpose of this thread, at this time, is not interested in solutions so much as enjoying gathering a bandwagon of how crappy things are. Color me unimpressed. (NOTE: that doesn't apply to everyone who has posted, and may largely be reflective of my irritation at solutions ideas being ignored).

As for 'let's make a bet that people won't turn a mage in' - that statement proves my point exactly. I've personally taken one mage and at least two heretical confessions myself with both Lauris (mage) and Jenifyr (2 heretics). I didn't burn anyone for it. Mages got scolded to turn themselves in. Heretics got told to do silly stuff like dunk themselves in the river and do better in the future. No ill effects over here. You can just stop 'playing to win' and start treating mage players like RP partners that have something fun to contribute to your storyline. So I repeat, Order players openly refuse to play the theme as laid out in the help files, then bemoan that no one trusts them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Starstarfish
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Re: Individual Piety

Postby Starstarfish » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:21 am

In general, I like many parts of this suggestion, and will talk to staff about implementing some of these. In particular, I like the XP bonus given out gor a sermon or a confession as a command.


I think that having a "performance" command equivalent for Orderites for giving a sermon and/or confession would be keen. Perhaps have it Charisma based. Or potentially introduce some kind of Public-Speaking skill that people could use for it. I do think as I said having some Order specific skills would be cool. Having it give an RPXP bonus for attending one would be also great. And/or one of the weekly ones similar to Support where it's a longer term benefit.

I'm all for the concept of Piety points, but my question would be if they have no coded designated purpose against magic what would they be used for? Would they play into the Piety city metric? Would shopkeepers give a discount to people seen as super Pious? Would they just be something to have? Also, how would one check another person's Piety level really using a command? Won't that make being a heretic extremely difficult?

Would this be what we'd base seeing someone as Pious as? - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=900

No ill effects over here. You can just stop 'playing to win' and start treating mage players like RP partners that have something fun to contribute to your storyline.


That might entirely depend on whom you are interacting with. In my albeit limited experience, such "higher level" confessions seem to go hand in hand with death threats, which .. sort of changes the dynamic of the scenario. It might not change it thematically, but I think it's much harder to expect there won't be ill effects by letting someone go who threatened to kill you. PK is the ultimate playing to win, really. And as long as that is part of the game, then as an individual you make decisions based on whether or not the fun of continuing at storyline with that person is worth the risk to your own storyline ending. That's not a right or wrong kind of answer, really, but that is what it is. I agree more people should want to play the long-term enemy aspect. However, I'm not sure everyone feels that same way. And that's not uniquely an Order and/or Mage thing, I'd think but part of a wider question.

Also, for quite some time the "playing field" about not "playing to win" as it were between the Order and Mages as a general arena was being set by two players who eventually got themselves banned for various things, and I'd argue didn't have the sort of overall theme/game collective in mind. And ultimately, people can only do so much to control other players except to weather the storm. What we do now is try and re-establish what things should be like - hence the thread asking for suggestions and giving suggestions on non-fatal ways to play up the arch-nemsis route. I think most people legitimately want to see the "other side" as RP partners, indeed we begged that before on the last Mage vs. Order discussion. It's certainly what I'd like to see.

So I repeat, Order players openly refuse to play the theme as laid out in the help files, then bemoan that no one trusts them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


The difficulty that I have expressed to you myself is that there are ways that various helpfiles or information seems to contradict itself. I think that might be what people meant by things feeling "broken" - that one can make a decision based on certain helpfiles or information and be deemed as wrong as there are other helpfiles that imply something slightly different. And you yourself stated once that theme is fluid and can change. Ultimately that's for staff to decide what theme is, but there are times when we ask for clarification or point out those errors things it seems to be a point of annoyance. So rather than earn ire, one simply makes the best interpretation one can.
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Kinaed
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Re: Individual Piety

Postby Kinaed » Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:39 am

I think some players just can't cope with ambiguity. Help files say Inquisitors hunt mages. Help files say confession is sacrosanct. Help files say the Order does charity and community uplift, but they also violently discriminate against a specific group of people. Some people's heads explode trying to reconcile these things into a happy world view, but none of those things are incongruous in my view.

If there are incongruencies in help files, please typo them instead of raise it in a general sense on the forums. It just seems like an aimless complaint with no purpose. I don't even know what is presumably out of whack. The typo board is designed for this purpose.
Rhothrian
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Re: Individual Piety

Postby Rhothrian » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:09 am

Kinaed wrote:- In general, I like many parts of this suggestion, and will talk to staff about implementing some of these. In particular, I like the XP bonus given out gor a sermon or a confession as a command. I am less keen on the various stat bonuses or protection from magic. I'm neutral on the teaching bonus. I'd love to brainstorm more ideas to get people to act like Davites (or whatever their religion is).

I get the impression that even with an xp bonus a sermon isn't something that people in general want to show up for. Thus an alternate version was added to the original post in blue (a separate post on the same topic was also created). Making sermons similar in creation to a rumor with the added bonuses of earning piety and allowing the priest to affect a metric vote would meld secular and religious influence in addition to providing asynchronous gameplay that would simulate being at a sermon and participating without having to physically be there. This would create an environment with less firebrand preachers and more political clergy being sought out for their help towards influencing metrics by those invested in the results. The important thing is that you would at least see/hear about sermons and religious themes being created and priests will increase exposure and presence.

There are similar issues with confession in regard to it being something that not many players are lining down the block to participate in without some other tangible benefit. Getting an xp bonus per IC day would definitely prompt folks to come forward to receive one. I can almost guarantee you that. What is being confessed would of course vary with the individual player but fabricated material where the player isn't being made to feel they are compromising themselves should be just as acceptable as information revealed about a pvent. The issue is making sure you aren't incriminating another player in this false narrative. This bonus should also be given in the form of penance AFTER the priest has verified that the atonement issued from the confession has been carried out sufficiently. This is not something that should be just handed out without some work on the part of the priest and the confessed.

I still think that some of these skills such as sermons and confessions should be things that are unique to the clergy side of the order. It should be a hard choice between being an inquisitor or a preacher. Anyone well versed in religious doctrine could give a sermon to include knights for that matter and nothing would stop them from doing so besides lack of interest. However, the coded benefits as they have been mentioned should be special and something to entice players to stay along the path of the spiritualist as opposed to getting same things as the spiritual investigator. Barring that the normal clergy should at least be better at them, perhaps bestowing larger bonuses to reflect that these rituals are what they do for a living. Clear lines within the order to delineate shepherd, investigator and hunter and unique benefits and abilities to each.

Kinaed wrote:- Vox and Puciek are correct that the reason thr original piety bit the dust is that it was a private stat that people got high, got a bonus, and it had absolutely no relation to their IC behavior. Therefore, whatever we implement needs to be peer-checked. Eg, a sermon happens one person to many, so many people see if a sermon actually happened. Piety as a score on the scoresheet didn't make anyone accountable to RPing that way.


I'm curious what the bonus was for piety when it was active. When I played a priest the feature was not in use and existed only as a placeholder. If piety is more about reputation based on religious practices I still think there needs to be some measure of morale. The good feeling you have after having your faith reinforced. Perhaps instead of affecting health and mv negatively a high well being or morale would give a bonus to these things and would be replenished through some of the religious rituals to include sermons, prayer and confession. That way people don't feel forced to participate and its not taking anything away but if they want a bonus then they will need to put in the few minutes of effort per IC day.

Kinaed wrote:To extend that thought, what I think I might do is also give people the ability to award one another Piety Points. Those points can give their friends bonuses and also reputations based on what kind of piety their peers think they've demonstrated. Give the Order the ability to check piety, and people the ability to see their own reputaion in terms of what people think their religious alignment is and why. Potentially let them use IP to change their piety reputation if they want/need to.


It has been established that the Lord of The Springs is a passive deity that doesn't perform miracles or bestow spiritual gifts. Therefore the tangible power of the faith would be coming from the uplift in morale and the psychological affect of having that belief system reinforced by charismatic clergy and pious fellow believers, in addition to its use as a social control mechanism. What I originally suggested is that piety was an alternate xp pool that specifically fed into the gain of religious skills to give people the option of either actively participating in religion or not. What Kinaed suggests is that piety would be a sort of religious reputation system that could also be altered by fellow players. In general I like that suggestion as long as it is an optional means of altering/earning piety and not the only or primary. The bulk of it should be coming from your actual practices in game as you interact with the various religious rituals. For example, people get lazy, caught up in other things, judgmental and simply forgetful when it comes to recommends which would be similar to piety. I can only assume the same about piety if It were handled like this.

So, if piety becomes a type of religious reputation system then the ability for the order to know a person's score would be a simple simulation of information gathering. Could this be a skill or tied into city lore skill in some way, with a low score apt to only give a nebulous answer with high skill giving an exact descriptor?
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Voxumo
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Re: Individual Piety

Postby Voxumo » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:42 am

The original piety, to my understanding, was either a shield against mattack, or had some effect on spells. It was moreso a passive counter to magic, to my understanding. I wasn't actually around for when it existed.
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