Individual Piety

Rhothrian
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Re: Individual Piety

Postby Rhothrian » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:34 pm

Puciek wrote:That's the problem with most upkeep coded systems - they require meticulous balance to not simply create another chore which you do for the sake of the coded benefit, not because it creates RP. And I don't think that those changes would help, because once you take the code away - you only have RP hooks left, the same RP hooks that most people are not interested in playing out right now.

Which is one of the reasons I suggested the atheism category so people could opt out of the extra upkeep and the benefits if they so wished to. That could be called anything. If you can't be bothered to do religious based activities then you wouldn't have to and could continue right along as you had before. Your character would simply have low piety and religious skills and no one would be the wiser as long as you kept your mouth shut and continued going through the motions. If the system is optional those who wish to participate will and receive the benefit of the extra steps.

I also highly doubt that the reason people aren't playing priests is simply because they don't want to. In every other rp game I have played there is never a shortage of spiritualists because they A. Have their own mechanic and B. Have a vital, if not essential role to play in the survival of other characters. Yes, I know that TI is very different from any other game out there but players need incentive sometimes to take certain paths. Wishing for the player base to suddenly embrace religious RP just because isn't going to get it done.
Puciek
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Re: Individual Piety

Postby Puciek » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:42 pm

Rhothrian wrote:
Puciek wrote:That's the problem with most upkeep coded systems - they require meticulous balance to not simply create another chore which you do for the sake of the coded benefit, not because it creates RP. And I don't think that those changes would help, because once you take the code away - you only have RP hooks left, the same RP hooks that most people are not interested in playing out right now.

Which is one of the reasons I suggested the atheism category so people could opt out of the extra upkeep and the benefits if they so wished to. That could be called anything. If you can't be bothered to do religious based activities then you wouldn't have to and could continue right along as you had before. Your character would simply have low piety and religious skills and no one would be the wiser as long as you kept your mouth shut and continued going through the motions. If the system is optional those who wish to participate will and receive the benefit of the extra steps.

So your solution to the problem you ask to introduce is to give people the option to be atheists (high unthematic IMO, but you elected to not respond to that part), but not roleplay the atheism in fear of the order. That... just seems to be circular logic to me.

Rhothrian wrote:
Puciek wrote:I also highly doubt that the reason people aren't playing priests is simply because they don't want to. In every other rp game I have played there is never a shortage of spiritualists because they A. Have their own mechanic and B. Have a vital, if not essential role to play in the survival of other characters. Yes, I know that TI is very different from any other game out there but players need incentive sometimes to take certain paths. Wishing for the player base to suddenly embrace religious RP just because isn't going to get it done.

Another way around, there are people willing to play priests, but there is little in terms of the player base for a priest to play with for the most part. And indeed, people do need an incentive, and for that role of priests requires actual redesign, not just code to reinforce the implementation which is, clearly, uninteresting for people to play and/or play with. Otherwise, you simply force them to do so something they don't want to do, and that's not fun.
Blake Evernight tells you, "You, Sir, won my heart today. Are you single?"
Rhothrian
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Re: Individual Piety

Postby Rhothrian » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:57 pm

Puciek wrote:So your solution to the problem you ask to introduce is to give people the option to be atheists (high unthematic IMO, but you elected to not respond to that part), but not roleplay the atheism in fear of the order. That... just seems to be circular logic to me.

I think we all know that there have been people who have faked their faith out of fear and political ramifications throughout history. In private they believed in all sorts of things or not at all. This is not a stretch of the imagination, even in TI. How long do you think a person would live in Lithmore, even in the current liberal political climate if they ran around spouting off about not believing in Davism? At minimum, they would be ostracized and cut out of RP. As I said, the ability to opt out of the system can be called anything. For all the rebels out there who want to do their own thing or feel it doesn't benefit them directly.

As for the part about priests being uninteresting for people to play and/or play with that sounds like your opinion. Although I recognize your right to feel that way I do not and would love to see a system like this. So far I have yet to see any suggestions or redesign ideas that would give the priest a renewed sense of purpose as what is suggested here.
Puciek
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Re: Individual Piety

Postby Puciek » Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:11 pm

Rhothrian wrote:
Puciek wrote:So your solution to the problem you ask to introduce is to give people the option to be atheists (high unthematic IMO, but you elected to not respond to that part), but not roleplay the atheism in fear of the order. That... just seems to be circular logic to me.

I think we all know that there have been people who have faked their faith out of fear and political ramifications throughout history. In private they believed in all sorts of things or not at all. This is not a stretch of the imagination, even in TI. How long do you think a person would live in Lithmore, even in the current liberal political climate if they ran around spouting off about not believing in Davism? At minimum, they would be ostracized and cut out of RP. As I said, the ability to opt out of the system can be called anything. For all the rebels out there who want to do their own thing or feel it doesn't benefit them directly.

As for the part about priests being uninteresting for people to play and/or play with that sounds like your opinion. Although I recognize your right to feel that way I do not and would love to see a system like this. So far I have yet to see any suggestions or redesign ideas that would give the priest a renewed sense of purpose as what is suggested here.
People fake davism all the time right now, but they do it for IC reasons (aka another faith), what you are proposing is doing so for OOC reason of not wanting to deal with a coded metric. See the difference? Alos have a look at help religion Davism, but to quote the fun part:

In the current day, the Order has been established for well over two
hundred years, and hardly a soul in the entire Kingdom has grown up without
its teachings as omnipresent truth. The general population of Lithmore and
most of the surrounding duchies is almost pure Davite. The few exceptions
have still had to operate in a predominantly Davite population: heretics
and mages hide or try to blend in, and uniformly, they too are culturally
raised within Davite society.

As such, all characters in the game, even heretics and mages, generally
view the world through Davite eyes.

This is how strongly the religion is imprinted into the world, even among the Charali, and why any sort of "opt out" makes very little IC sense.

And yes, of course, that this is my opinion (or more precisely observation), that is what we do on here - exchange opinions. I urge you to apply a priest and gauge how many people are willing to go for priestly RP, and for how long without being forced by code to do so. Then it won't be just an opinion, and I will be happy to be proven wrong, and see that people do queue up for priestly RP.
Blake Evernight tells you, "You, Sir, won my heart today. Are you single?"
Rhothrian
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Re: Individual Piety

Postby Rhothrian » Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:31 pm

Puciek wrote:And yes, of course, that this is my opinion (or more precisely observation), that is what we do on here - exchange opinions. I urge you to apply a priest and gauge how many people are willing to go for priestly RP, and for how long without being forced by code to do so. Then it won't be just an opinion, and I will be happy to be proven wrong, and see that people do queue up for priestly RP.


I’m not going to argue that doing things like confession, seeking advice and listening to sermons are activities that players are lining up down the block to participate in. I already mentioned as much. If these activities were doing something tangible for their character it might be a different story. Incentive. I have also briefly played a priest before and promptly combined it with another guild just to find some purpose.

However, the problem as I see it is that no one is willing to play a priest because they have no viable mechanic outside of an unpopular RP hook. Giving them access to a skill set that people can benefit from and participate in will give greater meaning to religion in general and will prompt people to create priests for other reasons than eventual promotion to inquisitor. If theme is something you prize so highly then why would you not want to see actual priest player characters in game performing a function that benefits people who actually participate in religion?
Puciek
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Re: Individual Piety

Postby Puciek » Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:37 pm

Rhothrian wrote:
Puciek wrote:And yes, of course, that this is my opinion (or more precisely observation), that is what we do on here - exchange opinions. I urge you to apply a priest and gauge how many people are willing to go for priestly RP, and for how long without being forced by code to do so. Then it won't be just an opinion, and I will be happy to be proven wrong, and see that people do queue up for priestly RP.


I’m not going to argue that doing things like confession, seeking advice and listening to sermons are activities that players are lining up down the block to participate in. I already mentioned as much. If these activities were doing something tangible for their character it might be a different story. Incentive. I have also briefly played a priest before and promptly combined it with another guild just to find some purpose.

However, the problem as I see it is that no one is willing to play a priest because they have no viable mechanic outside of an unpopular RP hook. Giving them access to a skill set that people can benefit from and participate in will give greater meaning to religion in general and will prompt people to create priests for other reasons than eventual promotion to inquisitor. If theme is something you prize so highly then why would you not want to see actual priest player characters in game performing a function that benefits people who actually participate in religion?

Where did I say that?
I simply disagree that the way to do it is by forcing people to roleplay with priests because this is a game to be enjoyed, and not a work to grind metrics. What they need instead is a redesign so they can provide interesting, unique RP avenues, so people will want to play with them, not be forced to do so. But alas I don't have all the answers and don't know how to do that, if I did, I would have run for a god. Probably more priestly one :).
Blake Evernight tells you, "You, Sir, won my heart today. Are you single?"
Rhothrian
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Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:02 am

Re: Individual Piety

Postby Rhothrian » Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:44 pm

Puciek wrote:I simply disagree that the way to do it is by forcing people to roleplay with priests because this is a game to be enjoyed, and not a work to grind metrics. What they need instead is a redesign so they can provide interesting, unique RP avenues, so people will want to play with them, not be forced to do so. But alas I don't have all the answers and don't know how to do that, if I did, I would have run for a god. Probably more priestly one :).


I see. So, if Wellbeing were removed from the suggestions (the only forced part of the idea) and Individual Piety and the things feeding into it were left there would that change your opinion of the idea in general?

The general idea was to see priests as healers of the spirit/mind.
Puciek
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Re: Individual Piety

Postby Puciek » Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:54 pm

I personally don't like that either, as this is still a situation where you force someone into a scene more for benefits than the RP coming out of it, just that if you ignore it the loss is not as severe and is smaller PITA to maintain.

But what I would love this idea for is a machine fueling the heretical religions. Now that I would absolutely love, and very much in the shape you've presented (although without atheism and with religion-accurate commands), because that would put sense and purpose behind playing such characters, where if you are unable to practice your religion it hurts, thus you will be actively looking to recruit people into it, and risking your neck by doing all the fun stuff you need to do to reinforce it (at risk of being caught). For that I absolutely love it.

As priests, I might have a shell of an idea, something about priests and city metrics, maybe they could work together with people (make them part of plots to offer spiritual guidance etc) which would not only boost the plots but also piety itself (double bonus!). This would give priests a strong purpose, would be sought by all sorts of type (imagine thieves trying to corrupt a priest to bless their thieving enterprises,) etc. Will need to mindmap it and will probably make a separate post about it, typing this exactly as it pops into my head to not forget right now :P.
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Voxumo
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Re: Individual Piety

Postby Voxumo » Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:59 pm

I would like to speak my mind about the whole atheism bit. I don't think there are any characters who rp being atheists, Ie not believing in a higher deity. Even Rhea, my mage of two years who constantly tried to place doubt of the order in the people's mind believed there was a higher deity, just not the deity the order worships but the mother of such deity... Interesting bit of lore that is thoroughly hidden and only referenced once that I am aware of. I mean you can't really have demons out and about and not think there is something more. Though doubting the order's methods and motives is not akin to atheism.

However I also wanted to talk about "Tangible" effects. Time and time again the order has been told by staff that LoS is a very backseat deity, providing those who spread his word with no extra powers, aside from pyring. I remember one time I tried to bless the madison after a particularly bad mage incident, going so far as to burn hemproot, given it's anti-magic properties and washing it down in water from the bren. I was told by staff at the time that I really couldn't do that as blessings are not meant to be seen as things to counter magic.

The point I'm trying to get at, is that it is unlikely commands will be given to the order that result in tangible ic benefits, because that would go against "LoS is a very distant god who doesn't interfere in the lives of his believers."

LoS is a shit deity, but that's why his order rules through fear more than acts.
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Rhothrian
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Re: Individual Piety

Postby Rhothrian » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:07 pm

Voxumo wrote:The point I'm trying to get at, is that it is unlikely commands will be given to the order that result in tangible ic benefits, because that would go against "LoS is a very distant god who doesn't interfere in the lives of his believers."


The benefits wouldn’t be coming from LOS as it would in any other game world where deities empower priests in exchange for their worship and spread of that worship to other mortals in a type of collecting of spiritual energy to feed said deity. What I was suggesting is that these benefits are coming from the strength of belief and the power of suggestion, not some divine gift.

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