Ability to use either Forage or Herbalism for harvesting

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BattleJenkins
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Ability to use either Forage or Herbalism for harvesting

Postby BattleJenkins » Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:48 pm

I always thought that it was a little bit odd that gardening is dictated entirely by the Herbalism skill, which is a guildskill in addition to having an intelligence requirement - and someone I've been playing with has recently been experiencing some frustration with being unable to grow and harvest their own vegetables because of that.

I figure that because Forage often includes harvesting plants (i imagine that the wild onions and herbs and such that one can find with Forage are harvested rather than found laying around), perhaps it can be used for gardening as well? So if someone wants to harvest plants from a garden, it could use either their Forage or Herbalism rank, whichever is higher, to determine whether or not they can harvest from that plant or not...? Herbalism could remain a requirement for planting and tending plants, but I feel like Forage could easily justify knowing how to properly harvest from them.
Lily
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Re: Ability to use either Forage or Herbalism for harvesting

Postby Lily » Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:20 pm

That'd be great! The problem I can see though is, foragers not being able to plant gardens means they will only be picking things, not contributing plants, so I think they should be able to plant too.

I asked why it took so much intelligence to pick tea leaves in chat once, and others responded by saying that it might be because you need to know the names of plants to pick them. But if that's the case, why don't foraging, cooking, brewing, woodworking, etc., all have int requirements?

The second answer made more sense, though it was a meta answer, of herbalism not having enough stuff in it if gardening was taken out of it. Which does make sense yes, and it makes sense why gardening wouldn't be a separate skill. But would that much really be taken away if people could choose to invest in foraging or herbalism to increase their gardening skills?

What is foraging mainly for anyways? While my char uses it for the roleplay and less for OOC practicality, it seems it's just especially useful for mages? Anyways, it makes sense that if you pick plants you might eventually figure out how to plant them.
BlackSoul566
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Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:17 am

Re: Ability to use either Forage or Herbalism for harvesting

Postby BlackSoul566 » Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:24 pm

Why not just make certain berries, fruits, herbs and veggies forageable outside of the city? Meaning there are two ways to get these food things, rather than just just Herbalism.
Lily
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Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:49 pm

Re: Ability to use either Forage or Herbalism for harvesting

Postby Lily » Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:34 am

BlackSoul566 wrote:Why not just make certain berries, fruits, herbs and veggies forageable outside of the city? Meaning there are two ways to get these food things, rather than just just Herbalism.


Because foraging takes forever in comparison with harvesting. You're searching for the things vs. picking them where you know they are. So sure, you can forage for fruits and vegetables as it is, but it takes a very long time. In comparison, with harvesting, you can do other things while you wait for the plants to grow and then pick them right away when they're ready.

And also, because it makes no sense. For example, my character is smart enough to know exactly where to find wild plants, how to pick them, and such, yet said character is too dumb to pick strawberries?

The only reason it's like this is for balance issues. Consistency wise, it makes absolutely no sense. Ideally there's a solution that both addresses the issue of herbalism lacking enough uses without the addition of gardening, and addresses the issue of gardening requiring 55 int.

In my opinion, I don't see why foraging can't be coupled with harvesting as well. People who focus on herbalism will no longer have a sole monopoly on growing plants, no, but they'll still have a monopoly on the herbal concoctions that require 55 int, and, of course, it makes sense for herbal concoctions to require INT. Harvesting will still work as a filler, so people focusing on herbalism won't get bored by not getting any new stuff to do for 2 levels, and everyone's happy, no?

IMO, it'd help to have people who focus on herbalism weigh in here. Would you mind sharing harvesting with foraging or would you feel it'd make herbalism a lot less valuable if that happened?
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Inertia
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Re: Ability to use either Forage or Herbalism for harvesting

Postby Inertia » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:08 am

Hallo!

I use Herbalism extensively.

I think it does make most sense as a guildskill but just like most other guildskills, it's pretty powerfully useful up to rank 36 which anybody can get or at least open up in chargen - it's just one of those learning curve things, I think, where you may not know getting initial ranks is necessary when you first join the game.

With regards to what you can actually harvest, it's just been made a lot easier to tell how skilled you need to be but I believe the intention was that most simple plants are supposed to be accessible at the lower ranks. From help plants: Additionally, mixed flowers, common herbs, potatoes, carrots, lettuce and apples can be grown by anyone even without herbalism skill.

So the issue here might be less that gardening needs to be shared between skills and more that the rankings of other plants may need review. Also, there might be some tweaks necessary after recent changes, as I've heard some people are having trouble harvesting things they should be able to harvest, based on their skill.

I also use Foraging extensively, and while I'm looking forward to it getting an overhaul like other 'craft' skills, I do like keeping a distinction between what a character is actively tending and harvesting and what they're poking around in the wilderness to find. I think somebody's already mentioned that there ARE a handful of culinary items you can forage already, too.

If there's something you can't harvest or forage by rank 36 that you feel you ought to, I'm pretty sure you can request or post a note on the forums so Staff can consider making it more accessible.
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Playing: A, E, I, O, U and sometimes Y
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Dice
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Re: Ability to use either Forage or Herbalism for harvesting

Postby Dice » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:47 am

I think herbalism and foraging work fine as they are now. Losing access to some skills is the cost of taking low stats - it's the only way to discourage min-maxing and reflect the legitimate downside of low stats, the way our system works right now. If a PC can't do something because of a stat requirement, it doesn't mean the system should be changed - instead it means it's something that PC just can't do and it should be workedaround with RP.
Temi
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Re: Ability to use either Forage or Herbalism for harvesting

Postby Temi » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:40 am

The main difference I see between forage and harvest is the attention paid to the continued viability of the plant. A garden expects to continue on afterwards, whereas foraging just finds stuff, and can wipe out the room for a while. That said, I did design herbalism for gardeners to be entirely functional by 36. If there is a problem, maybe it is in ability to start the skill, and if the issue is the stats required, maybe role play your brown thumb and your frustrated attempts resulting in dead gardens. We did recently discuss separating herbalism and gardening, but we don't think it's actually a problem with the things available by 36 and the guildskill limit.
Lily
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Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:49 pm

Re: Ability to use either Forage or Herbalism for harvesting

Postby Lily » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:50 pm

Temi wrote:If there is a problem, maybe it is in ability to start the skill, and if the issue is the stats required, maybe role play your brown thumb and your frustrated attempts resulting in dead gardens.


The problem with that is, it means you can't play a bumbling/not so smart gardener. If you're at 55 int, you can't exactly roleplay like you're at 35 INT, and I'm sure there are very unintelligent people who, say, have a love for gardening/a green thumb.

And especially with stat rolls, it means once you become of average intelligence, they affect everything requiring intelligence, not just gardening. It's why, while I understand stat requirements when they make sense, when they don't make as much sense, they do affect roleplay. Unless someone with 55 int is allowed to roleplay having 35 and vice versa?
Temi
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Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:22 pm

Re: Ability to use either Forage or Herbalism for harvesting

Postby Temi » Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:16 pm

After a long discussion on the meaning of int today in OOC channel, I think this comes down to 35 int being a bit more severe than expected, but also there is a fair amount of leeway in how you want to roleplay 55 int. If gardening makes sense for your character, 55 int can make sense for them too - perhaps with a little bit of generous interpretation. As long as you don't go completely crazy with how you interpret your stats, no one is going to hold it against you.
Applesauce
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Re: Ability to use either Forage or Herbalism for harvesting

Postby Applesauce » Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:58 am

Lily wrote:
Temi wrote:The problem with that is, it means you can't play a bumbling/not so smart gardener. Unless someone with 55 int is allowed to roleplay having 35 and vice versa?


I know this has been explained already in threads and visnet, but the numbers don't matter the way you think they matter. They exist as general guides and code support for RP, not as strict and cruel arbiters of RP.

If I have stats 35 across the board and "emote fight" (not the coded attack command, just emote) with a 100-stat 75-rank-everything combat monkey, depending on how the scene progresses I could still win. Maybe the other guy stubs his toe on a loose cobblestone and falls heart-first into my dagger, who knows? The fact that there's no such coded thing as a stubbed toe, OR a loose cobblestone, OR one-shot-kill heart stabs does not matter to the roleplay. They exist because the players behind the characters have free will and limitless imagination.

You are strongly encouraged to interpret your stats however you want and express that accordingly in your roleplay. If that means your 55 int char can't manage to tie her corset in the morning without help, but she's a savant at digging holes and putting stuff in them, that's fine. There are different kinds of intelligence, and only YOU can even see your stats in a scene, so not only does nobody else mind how you interpret them, they couldn't enforce anything different if they wanted to.

(And they don't want to.)

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