Making chargen newbie friendly

Ideas that have been discussed, approved, and are awaiting implementation.

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Puciek
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Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:47 pm

This is first post in my line of "how to keep new people in TI", based on my own experience.

First thing on the roast - chargen.
I am pretty sure that most new players who suffer through chargen, will be tired by the time they get out of it. For me it took over an hour to go through it (and I made my first character couple months ago, although it didn't last long) and that included skipping a lot of content it offered.

My suggestion is to introduce alternative chargen - one only for trully new players.
It will be much shorter. Simply - give them the cliff-notes of the lore and game and make and link them to a helpfile which will explain "You have been given a cliff-notes, enough to just start playing, but if you want to learn more details about the world, checkout the following helpfiles: xxxx". And then let them pick a PREMADE character (with set stats, skills and so on) and for the love of all mighty, regardless of his origin give him Lithmorran on at least 36, but prefferably 46 (it really creates a lot of confusion for new fellas, if someone later on wants to create a character without it, he can use the advanced chargen).
Ideally character creation should not take more than 15-20 minutes, which includes writing his own description and organizing his gear. This step could use a lot of improvement - let us browse "gallery of descriptions" taken from killed/deleted players (it really helps a lot to have a template of sort) and then just pick gear that suits us, instead of restringing out own (new player doesn't need to know what a restring is).

Essentially this would break down chargen to three rooms:
1. Read the cliff-notes about world in general, if he decides to be latent mage make him confirm it 3 times that he is aware of consequences and that he will most likely be burned. (This should be optimized to take no more than 5 minutes)
2. Pick one of premade "classes" with predefined rp goals and ideas. (This should not take more than 3-5 miuntes, so let's not give them too much to chose from)
3. Write your description, set your height/weights, pick up the gear you would like to start with and move on. (up to 10 minutes).

People who come out of this chargen would be cyan, while people who come out of the advanced one would not. This way when you see a cyan player, you know for sure that this is a begging player and a lot of leeway should be given. I would also suggest that for those players we make the cyan phase last a lot longer, until they get into a guild (or reach some very huge amount of experience).

I would also vouch for giving them much more starting silver, currently the 50 you get barely allows you to get tools for your trade (for example an axe to cut down trees is about 30 silvers, so you are left with money for a not-so-tasty meal), not to mention leaving place for when they get hit with a learning curve and dump their money on useless item.

I really believe that with those changes, new players will have much easier landing into TI, and more of them will stick along. One thing I would also add is to make a public message when a new player moves from chargen into the world, so someone will move and interact with them. Maybe even offer some sort of "tour guide" system, where player would be rewarded for touring new players about the city and working as their guides for duration of that trip. This sort of interaction allows to answer all common questions, and makes it easier to interact with others.

At any given time they also should be allowed to "reroll" using the advanced chargen, once they understand the game a bit.
Blake Evernight tells you, "You, Sir, won my heart today. Are you single?"

Geras
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Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:11 pm

I definitely think it would be nice to have a streamlined character creation option for new players. Not sure if I'd go the specific route advocated here, but yah I definitely see the need.

Puciek
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Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:33 pm

Geras wrote:I definitely think it would be nice to have a streamlined character creation option for new players. Not sure if I'd go the specific route advocated here, but yah I definitely see the need.
It's obviously up for the debate, that's what are those forums for. What would you have in mind exactly?
Blake Evernight tells you, "You, Sir, won my heart today. Are you single?"

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Leech
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Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:45 am

The only thing I would change about character creation would be to tone down the information that new players are bombarded with. Let them seek that out on their own time, and in the meanwhile give them a very abridged version of what they need to know;

Your race dresses this way, acts this way.
Lithmorrans are racially superior, they act this way.
Religion goes like such and such. Mages are bad.
Here's some tips. (Get in a guild, interact, here's where you can find a map.)
Now make your clothes!

Admittedly, I wish we didn't have so much damn clothing. Can we base the game in the Isles?

Edit: More new player feedback would be good. I'm kinda used to Inquisition char gens by this point. I've played through a lot of char gens, so I'm pretty lenient on what's too long and what's too narrow.
Player of: Alexander ab Courtland

Puciek
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Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:59 am

The thing is that you can't just throw away some of the lore linked to chargen and keep the rest because it requires a player to make important decisions right there like picking starting abilities and more importantly stats, and won't have enough information to make optimal choices on their own (hence why I've gave my first just 60 all around, because i don't know how some skills work and I don't want to cut myself out).

While with pre-made character that problem is resolved, they can pick from ready-to-play characters that are focused in one field and built around it (they simply read couple lines of description and already know what to expect from it).
Blake Evernight tells you, "You, Sir, won my heart today. Are you single?"

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Leech
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Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:57 am

...and for the love of all mighty, regardless of his origin give him Lithmorran on at least 36...
Agree.
I would also vouch for giving them much more starting silver, currently the 50 you get barely allows you to get tools for your trade...
Agree.
...let us browse "gallery of descriptions" taken from killed/deleted players...
Agree. It would be nice to have inspiration for new players to draw from when creating description and intro descs.
And then let them pick a PREMADE character...
Disagree. So the issue that you're bringing up is that you feel slighted, because you didn't have enough information to optimize your character as successfully as veteran players? To fix this, you want a premade option. In my mind, the staff could spend a whole week making premade characters and still never provide you the optimization you desire. Having premades is not the way to fix this problem, and it will discourage people from experimenting and customizing their character to fit their RP - something all MUDs should encourage.
...then just pick gear that suits us, instead of restringing out own (new player doesn't need to know what a restring is)...
Disagree. As it is, restringing your gear is optional, and having staff sit around and fill a newbie shop would be redundant when you can style your character exactly how you want using restring, IF you want to. Why would I buy Nikes if I want Converses?
...if he decides to be latent mage make him confirm it 3 times that he is aware of consequences and that he will most likely be burned...
Disagree, sort of. Choosing to be latent should come at the very end of char gen, when you already know a little about how magery works within the theme. I think there was a Final Fantasy for GBA that asked three times if I wanted to confirm something. You know what I did with it? I didn't play it.
Pick one of premade "classes" with predefined rp goals and ideas.
Again, this discourages customization, creativity, and doesn't allow people to create their own character - which is part of the fun in an RPE game.
People who come out of this chargen would be cyan, while people who come out of the advanced one would not.
This one, I do agree with, but for a different reason. Only new players should get the cyan color, not new characters.
Maybe even offer some sort of "tour guide" system, where player would be rewarded for touring new players about the city and working as their guides for duration of that trip.
This is really, really OOC. If new players would like a tour, they may try playing their characters as newly arrived in Lithmore, and ask somebody - but IC tours should not be given immediately to new players when they spawn on grid. I have seen this happen elsewhere, but those settings are generally a lot more relaxed when it comes to RPing. I.E. consensual, non-permadeath, ect.

-----------

I hope I've provided a bit of constructive criticism. A lot of good ideas are presented here, and I'd like to keep them going about, and keep the conversation going! However, I also have to disagree with the idea of having two char gens. As is, advanced players can just rush through char gen at their leisure - they don't need a new one, and any changes made to the current one wouldn't really affect them.

Character generation really shouldn't be there to give you all the answers. It takes a while to get the ins and outs of any game, and nobody should expect their first character to be worth a damn. Usually when I first start at a MUD, my first character is a complete throwaway, so I can learn and improve and then make the character I really want to roll with.

Edit: There's a whole forum section dedicated to helping new players, as well as the aides and staff. Also, before picking stats you have access to their help files that describe them, and you can reroll to redo them. In my opinion, all the resources are there. Maybe some of it should be streamlined, to get you in game quicker, but the resources to make the character you want ARE there. You just have to realize that you aren't going to get it the first time - and that's the same with every MUD.
Player of: Alexander ab Courtland

Puciek
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Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:16 am

I thank you for lengthy reply, disagreement (that also includes arguments not just stomp of a feet) is always welcome :)
Leech wrote:
And then let them pick a PREMADE character...
Disagree. So the issue that you're bringing up is that you feel slighted, because you didn't have enough information to optimize your character as successfully as veteran players? To fix this, you want a premade option. In my mind, the staff could spend a whole week making premade characters and still never provide you the optimization you desire. Having premades is not the way to fix this problem, and it will discourage people from experimenting and customizing their character to fit their RP - something all MUDs should encourage.
They will not be optimized to what most call a "cookie cutter", but they will be optimal for task given. So let's say I want to play a whittler, it will give me a lot into whittling, a bit into appraise and some into woodcutting. When I made Bhaniz, i had no idea about usefulness of appraisal for traders (even though i browsed the skills list) and had to train it up from 0. Those are the things you can really only learn as you go, because of how deep this game is.
Keep in mind that as a cyan they can always come back and fine-tune their character once they understand the game a bit better.
As for rp goals, i would move that entirely out of chargen to be frank. Let them play a game for a bit, and then nudge them a bit later on to go back and pick what is the goal of your character. Let them feel the world before they marry it.
Leech wrote:
...then just pick gear that suits us, instead of restringing out own (new player doesn't need to know what a restring is)...
Disagree. As it is, restringing your gear is optional, and having staff sit around and fill a newbie shop would be redundant when you can style your character exactly how you want using restring, IF you want to. Why would I buy Nikes if I want Converses?
If they want to restring - let them. But most just want to pick up a torch instead of candle and a tunic instead of a dress. On Bhaniz doing the basic restrining of all gear pieces took me about 30 minutes (oh the learning curve), and all i wanted was just generic leather set and a torch. It doesn't take away, but adds an option for quicker, and yet custom, start :).

Leech wrote:
...if he decides to be latent mage make him confirm it 3 times that he is aware of consequences and that he will most likely be burned...
Disagree, sort of. Choosing to be latent should come at the very end of char gen, when you already know a little about how magery works within the theme. I think there was a Final Fantasy for GBA that asked three times if I wanted to confirm something. You know what I did with it? I didn't play it.
Thing is that a mage will die, and from what I saw they die fast. For many players that is a problem, and as he is going to commit a lot of time toward a death, let's make sure that he is aware of it.
Leech wrote:
Maybe even offer some sort of "tour guide" system, where player would be rewarded for touring new players about the city and working as their guides for duration of that trip.
This is really, really OOC. If new players would like a tour, they may try playing their characters as newly arrived in Lithmore, and ask somebody - but IC tours should not be given immediately to new players when they spawn on grid. I have seen this happen elsewhere, but those settings are generally a lot more relaxed when it comes to RPing. I.E. consensual, non-permadeath, ect.
It is very OOC, and it could even be flagged as such so when they wander you see (Tourguide) Big larger man (Touree) Smaller smelly man. This is an important step as it engages a player right from the start, shows him the ropes and takes away "rp virginity" (which is a problem). When i first stared I was moved ic with only "whererp" as a guide, without much clue what to do to earn some coin, where to practice fighting or meet people. It is another steep thing to learn on your own, and not a good one.
Leech wrote: I hope I've provided a bit of constructive criticism. A lot of good ideas are presented here, and I'd like to keep them going about, and keep the conversation going! However, I also have to disagree with the idea of having two char gens. As is, advanced players can just rush through char gen at their leisure - they don't need a new one, and any changes made to the current one wouldn't really affect them.

Character generation really shouldn't be there to give you all the answers. It takes a while to get the ins and outs of any game, and nobody should expect their first character to be worth a damn. Usually when I first start at a MUD, my first character is a complete throwaway, so I can learn and improve and then make the character I really want to roll with.

Edit: There's a whole forum section dedicated to helping new players, as well as the aides and staff. Also, before picking stats you have access to their help files that describe them, and you can reroll to redo them. In my opinion, all the resources are there. Maybe some of it should be streamlined, to get you in game quicker, but the resources to make the character you want ARE there. You just have to realize that you aren't going to get it the first time - and that's the same with every MUD.
I won't debate over minor technicality - whether it will be two chargens or one, this is really a minuscule change. Main point is that player won't be bombarded and stuck in chargen for hour(s). Keep in mind that most people don't have that much time to game as typical TI player, they don't feel like spending 40+ hours developing a character to just "throw it away" because it was their first. If we want muds to not die, we must cator them toward more casual player, not the dying breed of contra players :).

Stats description doesn't give you any good, as you are not familiar with how skills exactly work, you have to learn it by doing really (like with the appraise example, and the whole "how skill actually are taught and used in game" thingy).
Blake Evernight tells you, "You, Sir, won my heart today. Are you single?"

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Leech
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Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:49 pm

Those are the things you can really only learn as you go, because of how deep this game is.
You can also ask on visnet, or ask an aide directly. If they know, they'll tell you, and if they don't they should be able to find out. As you said below this comment, players can also go back into char-gen when they are still cyan, which also gives them a chance to feel around the world, and then change their skills. As for setting goals, you can change your character's goal at any time - and ALL players should come in thinking of what they want to accomplish, through roleplay, with this character. This is a roleplaying MUD, and a level of experience with RPing is often expected. I don't think TI is exactly catering to people who have never played a MUD before, because RPEs are one of the more difficult ones. There are tons of other MUDs out there I would consider 'starting' MUDs, where people can get their RP training wheels.
...and all i wanted was just generic leather set and a torch...
Usually, it's when you get into colors that the restring code starts to get lengthy, but I can't sit here and criticize people's speeds. I've changed my opinion - I agree, but this shop should be every ounce the definition of 'generic'.
For many players that is a problem, and as he is going to commit a lot of time toward a death, let's make sure that he is aware of it.
I'm pretty sure it's right there in the warning. It's a big red warning, hard to miss. But again, putting the choice at the end of char-gen will allow the player more time to learn the full impact of mage-craft.
...shows him the ropes and takes away "rp virginity" (which is a problem)...
You want to use an OOC process to interact somebody in RP? That's a bit odd, in my opinion, and counter-intuitive. We have WHERERP so you can find people, and it's the newbies job to make the attempt and get to where stuff is happening. There are some times when nothing is happening, I agree, but that's because of our player activity, and that is only going to be fixed by advertising. TI is fairly small compared to a lot of the bigs.

Usually when a newbie gets into a scene, people will see that they are cyan and interact with them more, show them a good time, ect. If the newbie needs to know where to train, they should ask ICly. All of this stuff should be reason for the newbie to get ICly involved. Those questions you have bouncing around in your brain - like what's a good tavern, where can I learn shit, where's the library - you should ask them ICly and use them to fuel your RP.
Stats description doesn't give you any good, as you are not familiar with how skills exactly work...
I don't really understand what you're saying here. Can you please explain more about why the help files for the stats don't help? If they aren't helping, it should be a prerogative to change them.
If we want muds to not die, we must cator them toward more casual player, not the dying breed of contra players...
Here, I think, is where we disagree in full, and what's fueling the rest of this conversation. Have you played other RPIs? Games like Atonement, and Accursed Lands, that throw you into the river without a paddle and throw your head under? Some of the best roleplaying games ever, but players were told upfront the dangers of the world, and their first ten characters almost always died until they got the hang of it.

In short, RPIs, and RPEs (Roleplaying Enforced) like TI aren't meant to cater to casual gamers. They are meant to cater to the niche of people who are sick of playing hack and slashers, or consensual RP. I'm not saying that justifies the steep learning curve - but it IS part of the baggage, something that if sculpted carefully can be eased. But you can't just cater to the casual gamer. RPEs are meant for roleplayers in the MUD community.

We already have tons of MUDs that cater to the casual MUDder. They're usually pay for perks and have horribly patronizing players. I don't want that, man!
Player of: Alexander ab Courtland

Geras
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Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:07 pm

The premade character is where I really don't feel comfortable. I think there could be some more variety/options in newbie gear to cut down on the need to restring everything though. And for skills, I dunno... hmm. Reassurance that you can be sent back to chargen to tweak it is one thing... but I agree that how it is now causes indecision and slows down chargen for new players...

Puciek
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Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:51 pm

Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:14 pm

And that's why it's a rare thing to see multiple new players in a week (and only part of them will stick). I am oldschool type of guy, i did finish contra without cheeting but i am also aware that if we cator games to only the hardcore playerbase, very soon we will be playing in ghost town. That's the reality of market. I never suggested a lowering RP standards, instead i propose making it much easier for complete newcomers.
Advertising is pointless at this point - new hardcore rpers don't really emerge (it's minuscule market, and maybe now and then will switch games, and they usually do it via recommendation by a friend [like I did]), so why bother bringing new people in, if they won't make it through?

Yes, everyone should have a goal. But it's hard to craft a goal if you know almost nothing about the actual gameplay, world and all that. And goal will also defines skills that you need in order to achieve it, they go hand by hand. Personally I've changed goal multiple times as I play, adjusting to what can be done (either because of code or player-base limitations).

Yes, the semi-ooc tours sound weird, but they work. Same as simple "Hello, welcome to The inquisition" said to a new player just when he registers increases the likelihood of him staying (social contracts are great like that, one of the oldest merchants trick). Tour-guides work on the same level - someone put an hour of their time to show you around, you feel obliged to at least give this game a honest try or two.

Requiring a newbie to ask on visnet what skills/stats should he pick is problematic on multiple levels but most important part is that they are afraid of looking dumb and hearing the almighty "RTFM". It is best if user can get all required data on his own without much hassle, with asking players as an option. They don't want to spend 10 minutes conversing over which skills to pick, they wanna go ahead and play.
Blake Evernight tells you, "You, Sir, won my heart today. Are you single?"

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