[Complete] Increasing Learn Master Slots

Ideas that have been discussed, approved, and are awaiting implementation.

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Leech
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Location: Behind you.

Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:20 pm

As is, int+wis/20= number of learn master slots. I'd like to suggest that we make it divided by fifteen instead of twenty, which would give us 12 master slots at 90 wis+int instead of 9 (credit to Takta for the math). Why this travesty you say?

A. We can have two guilds, which means more skills to learn. More master slots are needed.

B. Anybody wanting to get good in combat needs, it seems like, at least two defenses, if not three, and a weapon skill. If you're dual wielding, you'll need that mastered plus another weapon skill. Couple this with learning any guild skills, or other skills, and that's a LOT of learn master slots.

C. Wis+Int are a bit powerful when compared to all the other stats, just because of the enormous hold they have on learn master slots. This is just my opinion, but I've certainly been dumping everything into those stats since I started playing.

Please discuss.
Player of: Alexander ab Courtland

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Kinaed
Posts: 1984
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:54 pm
Discord Handle: ParaVox3#7579

Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:36 am

Well, we're not thinking of increasing learn master slots per se... but rather creating a pyramid system for the skills where a player can have something like 3 GM slots, 20 Master slots, then everything else up to adept.

Three skills at GM is really all one needs to master any given sphere and skillset, albeit it's tight, and being able to raise a heap of skills to master preserves the idea that being a Grand Master at something is well and truly special.

We don't expect this to be terribly popular, but the reality is that being a grand master at something should be quite special and be like a character's lifelong achievement through years of study and practice. It's a major focus. Being a grand master is something special and unique rather than a definition of their character's full skillset.

That said, we aren't likely to touch this for some time.

Specific to your points:

A: Dual guilding = more skills required
Actually, we took that into account as dual guilding has been around as long, if not longer, than our current number of Learn Master slots.

B: Anyone wanting to get good at Combat required 3 skills...
Actually, anyone wanting to get good at any of the three major "spheres" requires 3 skills. Mages get two free slots that are auto-linked to their main element, however. They still need 1 slot for their arcana. Anyway, again, I'd say we'd already taken this into account when we reviewed the Learn Master code. Right now, it's far fewer skills than Old Combat required :)

C: Wis + Int are powerful
I think that depends on the type of character you have and what you're looking for play-wise. Certainly, you'll learn more slowly with low int/wis, so they're not throw-away stats, but if you're making a combative character and are patient, I'd personally drop them in favor of str, dex and con - since int/wis isn't taken into account in combat at all. If I was making a rogue, I'd probably use wis, dex and cha - Wis for the perception rolls, dex for my thief skills, and cha for the general fact that it's quite useful for rumors, haggling, and my favorite, influence. With regards to making a mage - definitely, int/wis/cha focus. A bard? More rogue-eque. A lady-in-waiting? Cha, dex, wis.

Overall, I'd say the stress you're feeling to pick and choose skills is appropriate to the system - we wanted players to be able to be very focused or to be pretty broad, but not be able to have and do everything. I think we've done pretty well there because our Learn Master slots is far from the top of the list of player complaints (magic is!), but I wouldn't say we're against changes in this sector. Clearly, we've been thinking on it that I have that idea up top.

Geras
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Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:50 pm

Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:04 am

Just to be clear, would the 3 GM slots be dependent you having high int/wis? IE, is that the max? Would the ~20 masters slots be dependent on how much int/wis you have?

I think 20 might be a bit of a high number, but I do like the concept here quite a bit.

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Kinaed
Posts: 1984
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:54 pm
Discord Handle: ParaVox3#7579

Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:24 am

I'm not sure, we're only toying with the idea at this stage. Did you have a proposal for what it should be?

Dice
Posts: 479
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:15 pm

Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:12 pm

Here's my thoughts on the matter. If an individual learn master slot will be worth 'less' (because not every slot will allow for raising a skill up to 75), then I think we should definitely see more slots, set up in a tiered system.

One proposal I'd like to float is that we have unlimited slots (i.e., like the current slots), grandmaster slots, and master slots. There is a genuine difference in skill performance between rank 75 and rank 61 even though they're both technically grandmaster, hence why I'm differentiating them.

So my thought:

2 level 75 slots - Everybody gets these.

1-3 level 61 slots - int + wis/50.

2-7 level 41 slots - int + wis/25.

So a 50 int/50 wis PC has:
Right now - 5 unlimited slots.
Proposed - 2 level 75 slots; 2 level 61 slots; 4 level 41 slots

75 int/75 wis:
Right now - 7 unlimited slots.
Proposed - 2 level 75 slots; 3 level 61 slots; 6 level 41 slots

90 int/90 wis:
Right now - 9 unlimited slots
Proposed - 2 level 75 slots; 3 level 61 slots; 7 level 41 slots.

---------

Why this progression? It makes lower int/wis characters able to stand up to higher ones, while still keeping int/wis worthwhile. With lower int/wis you'll still have approximately the same number of 'core' slots that can get up to high enough levels to be competitive. Even your 50 int/50 wis fellow can be basically competent. Where he'll lose out is in the versatility that the 75/75 or 90/90 can bring to the table.

Geras
Posts: 1089
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:50 pm

Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:55 pm

I gotta say I like dice's proposal a lot, with a few provisos.

Namely:
  • If we're going with this (int+wis)/X formula, I don't think any of the Xs should be factors of each other. The reason being is that if they're factors of each other you'll get "magic numbers" for int+wis where you unlock extra GM and Masters slots at the same time (and God help you if your stat maxes are just below). Making it (int+wis)/50 and (int+wis)/33 or 27 or 22 or something like that I feel would be much better.
  • 2 slots for 75 will not be enough for any mage. I'd suggest either something where your native moon/element pair only takes up 1 slot or where moon/element pairs in general only take up 1 slot. That'd still put a high "price" to being a mage, but without preventing you from maxing the primary skill that you use in your "cover" life.

Dice
Posts: 479
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:15 pm

Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:50 pm

Fair nuff about the magic numbers. 50 and 20 might not be bad, honestly.

Re: mages, they currently get 2 extra slots. My inclination would be to continue that: 2 extra unlimited/75 slots. You should be able to get your full slot of spells and, yeah, also have a cover ID.

Geras
Posts: 1089
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:50 pm

Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:03 pm

So I did a quick spreadsheet to look at this (I'll post it and some graphs when I'm home from work).

Here's what things look like for 50/20.

Int/Wis 35-39 - 2 max slots, 1 GM slot, 3 Masters slots
Int/Wis 40-49 - 2 max slots, 1 GM slot, 4 Masters slots
Int/Wis 50-59 - 2 max slots, 2 GM slots, 5 Masters slots (50 is the only magic number)
Int/Wis 60-69 - 2 max slots, 2 GM slots, 6 Masters slots
Int/Wis 70-74 - 2 max slots, 2 GM slots, 7 Masters slots
Int/Wis 75-79 - 2 max slots, 3 GM slots, 7 Masters slots
Int/Wis 80-89 - 2 max slots, 3 GM slots, 8 Masters slots
Int/Wis 90-99 - 2 max slots, 3 GM slots, 9 Masters slots

I did some quit numbers for using 45/20

Int/Wis 35-39 - 2 max, 1 GM, 3 Masters
Int/Wis 40-44 - 2 max, 1 GM, 4 Masters
Int/Wis 45-49 - 2 max, 2 GM, 4 Masters
Int/Wis 50-59 - 2 max, 2 GM, 5 Masters
Int/Wis 60-67 - 2 max, 2 GM, 6 Masters
Int/Wis 68-69 - 2 max, 3 GM, 6 Masters
Int/Wis 70-79 - 2 max, 3 GM, 7 Masters
Int/Wis 80-89 - 2 max, 3 GM, 8 Masters
Int/Wis 90-99 - 2 max, 4 GM, 9 Masters (90 is the only magic number)

I'll email you the spreadsheet so you can play around with the numbers if you want.

On the magic front, I'm not a very big fan of having just two extra max slots for mages. I think a mage-blacksmith should be able to be just as big a blacksmith as anyone, but I don't think a mage-blacksmith-jeweler or mage-blacksmith-knight or whatever should be just as viable as a simple blacksmith/jeweler or blacksmith/knight. I think just one extra max slot, or perhaps one max slot, one GM slot and one masters slot, would be more appropriate.

Geras
Posts: 1089
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:50 pm

Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:54 pm

Come to think of it, some elements and moons don't even have a spell past 61. That's something that should probably be addressed too.

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